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Joined: Feb 2013
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I think for a little money, I would be dropping in a nicer trigger, and some 68/69 grain match bullets. Then consider accuracy.
Tough trigger and FMJ ammo is a plinker.
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Joined: Aug 2020
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Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2020
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The setup and ammo you are using is not conducive to fine accuracy. I would expect to see 4-5" groups at 200 yds. That ammo is minute of bad guy to about 300 yds. Yeah, probably fairly close, but I wouldn't be too surprised that that combination would be around 2.5-3 MOA at 100 yards, so very likely 5-6" 200 yard groups, even with 5 shot groups. It is what it is, maybe plus or minus a very small amount. But once in a while it might be better but usually there aint no Coupe De' Ville at the bottom of the Cracker Jack box. And that's why guys build "precision" AR's. MM 👍
Romans 5:1
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Campfire Outfitter
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I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
No offense taken, you are spot on. I was zeroing the gun for that ammo (new optic on the rifle) and making windage and elevation adjustments as I was going. 
THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL. The Tikka T3 in .308 Winchester is the Glock 19 of the rifle world. The ammo website is up and running! www.lostriverammocompany.com
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 22,193 |
I think for a little money, I would be dropping in a nicer trigger, and some 68/69 grain match bullets. Then consider accuracy.
Tough trigger and FMJ ammo is a plinker. Better triggers are never a bad thing, IMHO. Doesn't make the gun any more accurate, but it definitely enhance the ease of which the shooter can shoot consistent groups, with the gun's inherent potential. For $80, the LaRue trigger is worth the wait......................... MM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,873
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,873 |
Ten shot groups definitely give you more insight into dispersion (range of hits off of point of aim), and so help to better adjust POA to be centered where you want the average shot centered.
I started using the ten shot groups on the 24hourcampfire black rifle challenge targets, and now all of my friends who care about accuracy are piling on.
Ten shot groups tell me more about minute of ground squirrel, which is what I'm using varmint ammo for. Uh oh bsa will be by soon asking how come they haven’t posted their targets to the black rifle thread..
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 30,384 |
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 42,488
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 42,488 |
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
I'm glad you said it. 3 shot groups are useless. Especially at 50 yards. It should be 1 hole at that range with a good rifle. 5 shot groups at 100 yards and further are much better, because you can see anomalies in group dispersion and gives you a better idea on seating depth etc. Then step it up to at least a 9 shot group. I generally run 10, just to be safe and that was the criteria on the black rifle and MOA all day long challenge here. That's the only way you are going to know what the rifle and shooter is fully capable of and where your true POI is. Just about anyone can pull off a tiny 3 shot group with a 1.5 moa rifle. You are giving the op some good advice and at least he told us what barrel he's using now, but everything matters when it comes to how accurate you can make an AR. Non freefloating hanguards are a small ding, so subtract for that. How much, who knows because every rifle reacts differently to that. Using chidt ammo is a huge detriment in accuracy. Scope mount? Cheap unproven scope. Those are still some unknowns. The trigger is a known and that is also subjective to each individual shooter. One guy may shoot a heavy trigger rifle just fine, where another is more nit picky about such things. Other guys hitting on some great things like wind and using wind flags. I'm guilty of not using them lately, but have been thinking about doing so since I've been working on my precision BCM build. Lately the wind has been blowing hard enough to rock my target stand and its a heavy stand. Wind pushes those bullets around enough to open up those groups.
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 42,488
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 42,488 |
Ten shot groups definitely give you more insight into dispersion (range of hits off of point of aim), and so help to better adjust POA to be centered where you want the average shot centered.
I started using the ten shot groups on the 24hourcampfire black rifle challenge targets, and now all of my friends who care about accuracy are piling on.
Ten shot groups tell me more about minute of ground squirrel, which is what I'm using varmint ammo for. Uh oh bsa will be by soon asking how come they haven’t posted their targets to the black rifle thread.. We got too many hip shooters and torso is good enough guys here now. Not a lot of guys want to play with a precision rifle here anymore. Good thing my club still has our AR shoots. The beauty in those real world shooting events is the schidt you hear about 1/2 moa all day long goes out the window. Its put up or shut the fu ck up. We know who shoots around here and who bull chidts..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 42,488 |
I think for a little money, I would be dropping in a nicer trigger, and some 68/69 grain match bullets. Then consider accuracy.
Tough trigger and FMJ ammo is a plinker. Better triggers are never a bad thing, IMHO. Doesn't make the gun any more accurate, but it definitely enhance the ease of which the shooter can shoot consistent groups, with the gun's inherent potential. For $80, the LaRue trigger is worth the wait......................... MM After Christmas and maybe into the new year.. But yeah, its a wait for sure.. I just buy the RRA 2 stage varmint match for $79 when it goes on sale. Not hardly a wait and its a good trigger for the price tag..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 42,488
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 42,488 |
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
No offense taken, you are spot on. I was zeroing the gun for that ammo (new optic on the rifle) and making windage and elevation adjustments as I was going. No offense, but did you ever get it zeroed? I didn't see anything on your target that represented a good zero. Unless you like hitting off to the side?
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,720
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,720 |
I was just throwing out some possibilities for being 4” high at 200 with a dead on zero at 50. I’m not sure he shoots 3 shot groups or 20, I just assumed.
Today I went out and confirmed zero on my Colt 6720 and H2 Aimpoint. If you recall I sighted it in and went to confirm zero at 200 yards on the windiest day of the year. Even then I shot a 3 shot group about 2” to the right but it was an moa sized group. Today I had no wind and shot another 3 shot group that was centered but one shot opened the group up to about 4” straight up.
I was shooting a paper pie plate with a 2 moa red dot at 200 yards so there was no need to try and do any better. I’m tickled with my results and it’ll kill anything I want dead. But it all started with a 10 shot group.
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,873
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,873 |
I was just throwing out some possibilities for being 4” high at 200 with a dead on zero at 50. I’m not sure he shoots 3 shot groups or 20, I just assumed.
Today I went out and confirmed zero on my Colt 6720 and H2 Aimpoint. If you recall I sighted it in and went to confirm zero at 200 yards on the windiest day of the year. Even then I shot a 3 shot group about 2” to the right but it was an moa sized group. Today I had no wind and shot another 3 shot group that was centered but one shot opened the group up to about 4” straight up.
I was shooting a paper pie plate with a 2 moa red dot at 200 yards so there was no need to try and do any better. I’m tickled with my results and it’ll kill anything I want dead. But it all started with a 10 shot group. Chit 3 shot groups are for losers!
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,720
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,720 |
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,873
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,873 |
Lol I do 4 shot groups myself
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego.
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Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 1,838
Campfire Regular
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OP
Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 1,838 |
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
I'm glad you said it. 3 shot groups are useless. Especially at 50 yards. It should be 1 hole at that range with a good rifle. 5 shot groups at 100 yards and further are much better, because you can see anomalies in group dispersion and gives you a better idea on seating depth etc. Then step it up to at least a 9 shot group. I generally run 10, just to be safe and that was the criteria on the black rifle and MOA all day long challenge here. That's the only way you are going to know what the rifle and shooter is fully capable of and where your true POI is. Just about anyone can pull off a tiny 3 shot group with a 1.5 moa rifle. You are giving the op some good advice and at least he told us what barrel he's using now, but everything matters when it comes to how accurate you can make an AR. Non freefloating hanguards are a small ding, so subtract for that. How much, who knows because every rifle reacts differently to that. Using chidt ammo is a huge detriment in accuracy. Scope mount? Cheap unproven scope. Those are still some unknowns. The trigger is a known and that is also subjective to each individual shooter. One guy may shoot a heavy trigger rifle just fine, where another is more nit picky about such things. Other guys hitting on some great things like wind and using wind flags. I'm guilty of not using them lately, but have been thinking about doing so since I've been working on my precision BCM build. Lately the wind has been blowing hard enough to rock my target stand and its a heavy stand. Wind pushes those bullets around enough to open up those groups. I got a Timney impact trigger today. Installed this evening & I got 3.5 - 4 lbs with my cheap wheeler brand trigger gauge. I'm going to try it again 1st chance I get actually setting the scope for 200 yards. I know I can get somewhat better results than the other day, I just wasn't very steady. All the ammo I have is fmj. Mostly federal America eagle, quite a bit of frontier, & also some Winchester m855 which I have never shot. I will try again & report back with results.
Romans 5:1
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 38,153
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 38,153 |
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
I'm glad you said it. 3 shot groups are useless. Especially at 50 yards. It should be 1 hole at that range with a good rifle. 5 shot groups at 100 yards and further are much better, because you can see anomalies in group dispersion and gives you a better idea on seating depth etc. Then step it up to at least a 9 shot group. I generally run 10, just to be safe and that was the criteria on the black rifle and MOA all day long challenge here. That's the only way you are going to know what the rifle and shooter is fully capable of and where your true POI is. Just about anyone can pull off a tiny 3 shot group with a 1.5 moa rifle. You are giving the op some good advice and at least he told us what barrel he's using now, but everything matters when it comes to how accurate you can make an AR. Non freefloating hanguards are a small ding, so subtract for that. How much, who knows because every rifle reacts differently to that. Using chidt ammo is a huge detriment in accuracy. Scope mount? Cheap unproven scope. Those are still some unknowns. The trigger is a known and that is also subjective to each individual shooter. One guy may shoot a heavy trigger rifle just fine, where another is more nit picky about such things. Other guys hitting on some great things like wind and using wind flags. I'm guilty of not using them lately, but have been thinking about doing so since I've been working on my precision BCM build. Lately the wind has been blowing hard enough to rock my target stand and its a heavy stand. Wind pushes those bullets around enough to open up those groups. I got a Timney impact trigger today. Installed this evening & I got 3.5 - 4 lbs with my cheap wheeler brand trigger gauge. I'm going to try it again 1st chance I get actually setting the scope for 200 yards. I know I can get somewhat better results than the other day, I just wasn't very steady. All the ammo I have is fmj. Mostly federal America eagle, quite a bit of frontier, & also some Winchester m855 which I have never shot. I will try again & report back with results. Good on getting a trigger, Because you started with a decent rifle and gave it no help.
Slaves get what they need. Free men get what they want. Rehabilitation is way overrated. Orwell wasn't wrong. GOA member disappointed NRA member 24HCF SEARCH
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Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 11,741
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 11,741 |
I would say ditch the cheap bipod and try shooting off a pack.
I have a cheap little tactical pack with a nice saddle between the two front pockets..
It makes a good platform.
-OMotS
"If memory serves fails me..."
Quote: ( unnamed) "been prtty deep in the cooler todaay "
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 42,488
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 42,488 |
I'm assuming you're shooting 3 shot groups and here's the thing, unless you're getting a one hole group at 50 yards, you don't know if you're dead on.
Look at the groups above, those look great until you consider all 3, 3 shot groups are in different spots. Overlap them and they're over an inch. (no offense Ted) That's why 10 shot groups are better at telling what's going on. Trying to call zero off a 50 yard group is useless past that range.
Zero at 200 then shoot at other distances and see where you hit, right the results down.
Or zero at 100 yards and do the same because unless you're only concerned with getting hits somewhere on a full sized silhouette, you need to forget the 25, 50 or even the 36 yard zero. You need to know exactly where your gun hits at the distances you want to shoot in the conditions you are in.
I'm glad you said it. 3 shot groups are useless. Especially at 50 yards. It should be 1 hole at that range with a good rifle. 5 shot groups at 100 yards and further are much better, because you can see anomalies in group dispersion and gives you a better idea on seating depth etc. Then step it up to at least a 9 shot group. I generally run 10, just to be safe and that was the criteria on the black rifle and MOA all day long challenge here. That's the only way you are going to know what the rifle and shooter is fully capable of and where your true POI is. Just about anyone can pull off a tiny 3 shot group with a 1.5 moa rifle. You are giving the op some good advice and at least he told us what barrel he's using now, but everything matters when it comes to how accurate you can make an AR. Non freefloating hanguards are a small ding, so subtract for that. How much, who knows because every rifle reacts differently to that. Using chidt ammo is a huge detriment in accuracy. Scope mount? Cheap unproven scope. Those are still some unknowns. The trigger is a known and that is also subjective to each individual shooter. One guy may shoot a heavy trigger rifle just fine, where another is more nit picky about such things. Other guys hitting on some great things like wind and using wind flags. I'm guilty of not using them lately, but have been thinking about doing so since I've been working on my precision BCM build. Lately the wind has been blowing hard enough to rock my target stand and its a heavy stand. Wind pushes those bullets around enough to open up those groups. I got a Timney impact trigger today. Installed this evening & I got 3.5 - 4 lbs with my cheap wheeler brand trigger gauge. I'm going to try it again 1st chance I get actually setting the scope for 200 yards. I know I can get somewhat better results than the other day, I just wasn't very steady. All the ammo I have is fmj. Mostly federal America eagle, quite a bit of frontier, & also some Winchester m855 which I have never shot. I will try again & report back with results. Nothing wrong with plinking ammo buddy, just don't expect it to group real well out of any rifle. I'm talking your standard military 55gr fmj stuff. Every once in a while you'll find something that shoots well in the fmj variety, but it's not the norm. One of my buddies has a stock pile of M855 62gr green tips that his old Bushmaster National match loves. By love, I mean it shoots 2" groups at 100 with him behind the butt and with iron sights to boot. That is 5 shots per string. I'm lucky to get that with my precision handloads out of my old Colt pre ban using irons and 10 shots per group. Moral of the story, if you are concerned about accuracy, buy or load some better bullets or like MM suggested, build yourself a precision rifle. I was at the range yesterday with a friend and 2 guys showed up with some very nice AR's. One guy had just put a 22 Nosler Proof Research barrel on his rifle and he was testing out some loads. After he got it dialed in, he was shooting some nice 1 1/4" 5 shot groups, but this was with good ammo and bullets. He was shooting well enough that I snuck the BCM back into its case and had to pull the Northtech Defense out.. I keep most of the shots in the orange with that rifle, no matter how fast I'm shooting. The BCM will eventually come around, I hope.. Also, your new trigger should help. What I'm reading about the impact is it should be a 3 pound pull single stage. Should work fine, just don't hear much about them here. I personally prefer the 2 stage match triggers, but those are catered more towards precision rifles. Nothing wrong with a good single stage trigger though..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I won't even shoot FMJ in 200 yard Standing Highpower. 2 MOA ammo uses up almost the entire 10 ring, before you even take into account holding error.
Politics is War by Other Means
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 42,488 |
I won't even shoot FMJ in 200 yard Standing Highpower. 2 MOA ammo uses up almost the entire 10 ring, before you even take into account holding error. Exactly..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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