Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Another Bear Stopping Thread

We haven’t had a good “piss’n match” in some time on this topic! But, I’d like to stir the pot a little by asking this question.

Would you take/choose a large bore (.458Win., 470 NE, or similar) African Rifle over a large capacity 10 mm semi auto handgun to stop an attacking bear? Or…. would some of you opt for a big-bore handgun!

Take a look at the following article! I could not get the link to open….so copied! There may be some surprises awaiting you! My choice remains unchanged ! memtb



This is a test. Rank the following in order from that offering the deepest to the shallowest penetration: .500 Nitro Express, .458 Win. Mag., .45-70, .500 Linebaugh and .45 Colt. If you're like most shooters, you would probably say they are already in the right order -- and you would be wrong. The true ranking is neither a guess nor an opinion, but rather fact gained under controlled conditions. I have just returned from the first annual Big Bore Sixgun Seminar hosted in Cody, Wyo., by custom gun-maker John Linebaugh.

Most -- make that all -- seminars I have attended in the past have been presented by firearms manufacturers with the express purpose of showcasing their products. This seminar was quite different. Over 100 of us gathered to discuss big bore sixguns, how they work, why they work and, most importantly, why they are so effective on big game. No one was selling anything except truth.

We spent the first morning discussing big bore sixguns with Linebaugh and then the afternoon was spent doing actual penetration tests with the biggest sixguns and rifles available.

For any cartridge to be effective -- whether it's fired from a sixgun or rifle -- the "Four Ps" must be in place. Those are Placement, Power, Performance and Penetration. We define these terms as follows.

Placement: where the bullet strikes the intended target.

Power: the muzzle energy or TKO value.

Performance: whether the bullet expands, holds together, or comes apart.


Penetration: how deeply the bullet travels in the target medium, especially in a large animal.

Certainly a solid bullet, whether hardcast or jacketed, can be expected to penetrate much deeper than a jacketed hollowpoint or soft nose. That is a given. The wise hunter decides, according to his intended quarry, whether he needs ultimate expansion, deepest possible penetration or a combination of both.

As a shooter of big bore sixguns for well over four decades, and also one who knows how effective sixguns can be on big game, I must say I was surprised at how effective various sixgun cartridges proved to be during the penetration tests. For the shooting and experimentation, the standard bundles of newspaper soaked in livestock watering tanks were used. No guess. No golly. No opinion.

Going back to the five cartridges mentioned at the beginning the results were most interesting. Randy Garrett's .45-70 Hammerhead 530 gr. hardcast at 1,550 fps went 55" into wet newspaper. A 495 gr. hardcast .500 Linebaugh fired from a 5.5" sixgun with a muzzle velocity of 1,270 fps was right behind it at 52".

The .500 Nitro Express with a solid weighing 570 grs. came in third at 48", followed by the .458 Win. Mag. with a 500 gr. solid traveling at a muzzle velocity of 2,260 fps and 47" of penetration. Finally, the .45 Colt with a 350 gr. hardcast bullet at 1,400 fps gave 43" of penetration, or only 5" less than the .500 Nitro and 4" less than the .458.

Of course, the .45 Colt load tested is only for use in the Freedom Arms .454 or custom five-shot .45 Colt revolvers.

Other Cartridges

The .44 Magnum was not really given a thorough testing as the only load on hand was a 250 gr. Keith bullet at 1,200 fps which went 27" into the wet newsprint. At next year's seminar, hopefully we will have a larger variation of .44 Magnum loads to test, especially with 300 gr. bullets at muzzle velocities from 1,200 to 1,400 fps.

We also had only one load for the new .480 Ruger, Hornady's factory offering of a 325 gr. XTP at 1,350 fps. This round is not designed for deepest penetration but did expand well and travel 17" into the newsprint.

How did the truly big bore sixguns compare, the Big Berthas, the .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .475 and .500 Linebaughs? For the .45 Colt, in addition to the already mentioned load, a 310 gr. Keith at 1,250 fps -- one of my favorite loads and safe for use in Ruger's Blackhawk or Bisley -- penetrated 36", while the 300 gr. LBT traveling at 1,180 fps penetrated 2" deeper.


Using Cor-Bon's 360 gr. bonded core at 1,500 fps in the .454 yielded 45" of penetration. Moving up to the .475 Linebaugh, a 420 gr. LBT at 1,335 fps did 47" while the same bullet at an easy-shooting 1,050 fps still penetrated to 40".

We have already mentioned the second-place finishing .500 Linebaugh load. Others from this category of the biggest of the big bores included a 480 gr. Keith-style bullet at 1,200 fps and 41"; a 435 gr. LBT at 1,270 fps, 38"; and a 435 gr. LBT at only 1,000 fps still went 34" into the test medium.

This tells me that for most of us, and the game we pursue, either a .475 or .500 Linebaugh traveling at a relatively sedate 1,000 fps will do anything and everything we could ever hope for.

Actually, we can draw the further conclusion that the .44 Magnum with a 250 gr. bullet at 1,200 fps or a 300 gr. .45 Colt at 1,250 fps will certainly handle any deer that walks -- but then we already knew that!

Now we know with actual experimentation why it is big bore sixguns perform so well on large or dangerous animals including Cape buffalo, elephant, lion and the big bears of Alaska.

The big bore sixguns in this case, from top left clockwise Ruger .44 Magnum Freedom Arms .454 and Ruger Custom .45 Colt.

Ruger Custom .500 Linebaugh and Freedom Arms .475 Linebaugh can actually out penetrate most rifles.
"Who says the .500 Linebaugh doesn't kick?"

Cartridge Bullet Velocity Penetration

.45-70 530 gr. hardcast lead 1,550 fps 55"
.500 Linebaugh 495 gr. hardcast lead 1,270 fps 52"
.500 Nitro Express 570 gr. FMJ solid 2,000 fps 48"
.458 Win. Mag. 500 gr. FMJ solid 2,260 fps 47"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,335 fps 47"
.454 Casull 360 gr. honded core 1,500 fps 45"
.45 Colt 350 gr. hardcast lead 1,400 fps 43"
.500 Linebaugh 480 gr. Keith 1,200 fps 41"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,050 fps 40"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,270 fps 38"
.45 Colt 300 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,180 fps 38"
.45 Colt 310 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,250 fps 36"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,000 fps 34"
.44 Magnum 250 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,200 fps 27"
.480 Ruger 325 gr. XTP 1,350 fps 17"

AR15, 458 Socom, it will ruin their day

I'm taking the big bore rifle

I think a 45-70 lever might be a good choice.

12 gauge 870 short barrel with Brenneke slugs. Not that I have any experience with bears. But this is a fearsome weapon.

Ron

I like it

this should be entertaining ....

That 325gn XTP would be my very LAST choice for my .480s.

Brenneke Black Magic slugs (600gn) would be my first choice.

405gn WFN and/or

380gn copper WFN

for .45/70.

Soooooo, no one is gonna choose a semi auto 10 mm over the big bore rifles!

Though, I surprised that no one choose one of the big bore revolvers. Easier to carry than the rifle as it can be on person at all times while working around camp, ect., faster follow up shots if you have time for a follow up shot than a bolt gun. Though a double rifle would be faster than all others…..for two shots. And….the big bore revolvers out penetrated most of the rifles. Penetration is a nice thing to have on a large animal….more penetration generally means more stuff damaged!

I’d suggest that this test shows the big bore revolvers can hold their on and certainly be effective in a defense situation. Perhaps even superior in some situations! memtb

.45 Colt 310 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,250 fps 36"


Ain't no such critter. Elmer never designed a 310 grain bullet for the .45 Colt. If he didn't design it you'll have to call it something else besides a Keith. Folks get mighty loose with that name.

It probably would have been more appropriate to say….Keith style, rather than Keith! Though, I hope you got a little more from the tests than just that! memtb

I have a cousin who spent a great deal of time in Alaska while he was in the military. His take on the subject was: "You can kill 'em, but you can't stop 'em."

I spent 7 years in Alaska and my take is if you can Kill them, you stop them

I've done a lot of testing of big-bore bullets in tough media (dry glossy magazines, plus wood planks and hard cover dry books). There were a few surprises, like a 500gr Speer African Grand Slam making only 6" penetration, lost the front core retaining 310gr (62%), and a 350gr TSX giving complete penetration, stopping at the last panel of the second box with two planks of wood between the boxes, retaining 100% unfired weight, and fully expanded at 18" penetration .

That's just one thing. A 330gr Barnes Banded passed through all of it and may still be going! A 350gr Hor RN was stopped at 4", lost its core and the remaining jacket weighed 51% with some smeared lead attached... and so on.

The point? There are too many variables to be pontifical! Impact velocity, media type, bullet weight, construction and shape are all players. Some high velocity projectiles penetrated the most and others were defeated early on due to their construction and shape. A 480gr Hor DGX passed completely through, hitting a ledge behind leaving a perfect .458" imprint and that bullet was never found along with a few others. And so on...

I've used a variety of bullets (hardcast, mono-expanders and regular cup-and -cores from my .45-70s and .458s on black bears, and all I can say about that is Big Bores will stop 'em right there!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Quote from Bob:

I've used a variety of bullets (hardcast, mono-expanders and regular cup-and -cores from my .45-70s and .458s on black bears, and all I can say about that is Big Bores will stop 'em right there!



Pretty accurate summary there Bob! When things can potentially get ugly, there is no substitute for cubic inches…..provided quantity bullets are used!


Heck….I forgot to insert a “needmore” into the “stopping” cartridge possibilities list! 🤔 memtb

MEMTB: The Linebaugh Seminar data you presented appears to be from the first seminar. There is much more data from later seminars which is more extensive. As an example a test was added that included cow bones to see how that affected penetration. More loads are available such as .480 Ruger data with cast bullets, Buffalo Bore loaded ammunition, etc.

I shot a wounded black bear once from less than 20’ as it ran towards me. In the chest with a 510gr WW SP from my 458. Bear rolled, changed direction and ran 50 or more yards before stopping dead, happened so fast I didn’t have time to shoot again. 6 1/2’ black bear.

A buddy shot a charging 7 foot grizzly in the center chest with a WW white box 240 SP out of a 6” 44 magnum from about 40-50 feet. He folded and died instantly, never twitched.

I shot another wounded black bear that was over 6 feet with a 150 Norma out of my 300 Savage, he rolled and never moved.

A good friend killed a 6 1/2’ grizzly that was trying to eat him once in the eye socket from 12 feet with his 2” 44 Special with 250gr Keith style bullet doing about 900fps. He too folded up and never twitched.

Watched a guy shoot a small, 4’ 4” black bear through the shoulders with a 45/70 and 325gr Hornady Leverevolution factory loads. It ran 40 or 50 yards at high speed before rolling and flopping around bawling for a while before dying, had a 3” exit hole through the scapula.

Watched a guy shoot a 5 foot bear through the chest with a 375 H&H with Federal premium 300gr Partition ammo. It died pretty quickly but the bullet was perfectly mushroomed and under the hide on the off side. 60 yard shot and didn’t even hit a rib.

Another guy shot a 7 foot grizzly repeatedly through the chest with a 20” 458Socom and Barnes 300ttsx bullets. It didn’t charge or run thankfully because it looked like it had been killed with a .458 diameter drill bit.

On other occasions even bigger black bears would fold right up with a well placed shot from a 100gr 243 or a 130 out of a 270. This plus many other examples I witnessed told me that the only thing that could be counted on to absolutely stop one now either coming or going was a spine or head shot. Everything else is hope and speculation

This bids fair to be epic. I can't wait for the obligatory "alternate slugs with buckshot" guy to pipe in, or the "I'd use a scenar because it smoked an elk." guy, or all the other ignorant options to pop up.

bobmn, Thanks, I’ll try and find it! memtb

What you say is very true! My thoughts on this topic are, the greater the penetration ….the higher the possibility of hitting vital organs, perhaps even something CNS related! memtb

I have only killed bears with my bow and shotgun, typically over bait. Killing a bear over bait with a rifle is like taking candy from a baby lol

KB

Absolutely! But an injured, enraged, sow with cubs, defending a cache, ect…..may not be so easily stopped! memtb

True enough!

Whenever I am Elk hunting in Grizz country I carry this in my hands and my bow my back.

When I kill and animal in Grizz country and am skinning it out and quartering it, my shotgun is within arms reach!

Much, much better than nutt’n ….especially since you folks can’t (or very difficult) own a handgun! memtb

In this Stupid Country, you can not carry a hand gun for defense, unless you are a trapper I believe.

Besides when it comes to Grizz or a big black bear or Cougar defense I much prefer my Mossy 88 Defender with 5 rounds of 3" Magnum 00 Buckshot than a revolver.

KB

Stopping a attacking bear.... assuming one is not hunting bears, pre se.

If thats the case, a shotgun would be preferred, Mostly foolproof and accurate enough for close encounters, keeping in mind one is lucky to get off more than one, maybe two shots if a bear attacks.


Hunting bears is completely different and if one gets attacked while hunting bears, then I would be unquestioning their choice of recreation.

Considering the 4 "P's", if one cant get the first one right, the other 3 dont matter, and generally speaking pistols/revolvers are the most difficult to shoot quickly with good placement.

I actually expected that to be your response! A shotgun makes perfect sense for those under handgun restrictions.

However, when doing camp chores, field dressing game, ect., is the shotgun “ALWAYS” at arm’s length. While somewhat unlikely, bear attacks can be almost instantaneous….giving near zero response time to get to the long gun. A handgun can be easily/comfortably carried in a “cross-chest” carry type holster while doing most any chore! Even if downed by the bear…..there is a chance, albeit small, you may be able to access the handgun. That shotgun leaning against a nearby tree….maybe not! memtb

So, your recommendations would be…..do not resist fate, embrace the inevitable that you will be bear scat? Some folks would prefer to attempt survival! memtb

Haha, bears gotta make a living too... read previous post.

John, My apologies….I missed that post! However, I fervently disagree with a long gun for a stopping/defense firearm…..unless it is in hand at all times! Easily done if only hunting/hiking, ect.…..impractical perhaps impossible when doing other outdoor activities! 😉 me

If I Were in your situation in the USA where pistols were permissible, this is what I would have as my sidearm:

A Colt Python 357 Magnum with the heaviest rounds I could get!

KB

😂😂😂! memtb

That is exactly what happened to me, bear comes in rifle against a tree out of reach. 475 Linebaugh which was in a shoulder holster did the trick

If I were fishing or doing things that would make a rifle not handy, I’d pick my 629 with heavy flat nose cast. Otherwise I would stick with a Marlin 336 in 45-70 - same style of bullet, heavy flat nose cast. But! If I were doing something that would not work well with a rifle, I’d be having my 629 on my hip and have my 45-70 close by if possible.

In bear country, I worry about shooting high if charged.

I have a sling on my 500 mossy, short barrel and birds beak, pretty easy to carry. Sometimes carry a mdl 29 in a chest holster, which is what I would carry if rifle hunting.
This all boils down to the situation and awareness, I have yet to have a bear come through camp, I know it can happen.... Most of the times I see bears they are headed the other way...
I may or may not wear a handgun in camp, usually not.

I have had concerns at night when in a tent as a shotgun would be unhandy, handgun is kept close, bear has the advantage...so it goes in the wilds, no guarantees your not going to be scat..

Unless above timberline (Cascades and North Cascades) I always carry a big bore revolver sidearm, usually a SA.

Not as confident with my 629 as am with my SRH with a heavy projectile.

I was watching a video by a British Columbia hunting guide who was addressing that very subject. He explained how that was more usual than not, "shooting high" against a charging bear.

He said he advises hunters who find themselves in that situation, to immediately drop to one knee, putting the hunter's head and rifle at the same level as the charging bear's head and chest and then firing. He claims that is very effective.

FWIW.

L.W.

I have been to a few of Johns seminars years ago. They were very enlightening for sure.

One of the things I came away with is that most of us seem to feel the need to carry a lot more gun than we need, or can handle. Especially when it comes to handguns. A 500, 475, 454 etc. may be comforting, but a body needs a hell of a lot of practice and experience to accurately shoot a gun in that class even with moderate loads. How many can actually say they have that kind of experience?

It has been proven that lesser cartridges can do the job. I have the choice of a number of heavy hitters, but more times than not a 44 special will be on my hip (or chest) loaded with 260 grn Keith style bullets at around 1050 fps. I really do love the truly big bores, but after packing them around, They are most of the time relegated to hunting duty. The Ruger flattop I carry is lighter and a trimmer package, and I can get it in play and make follow up shots just a bit quicker than I can with bigger guns.

Just my 2 cents.

Byron

During several conversations with John, he told me the same…..which he has proven. That said, I’m running my 400’s (cast) from my 460 pretty warm…..to flatten the trajectory a bit at my maximum hunting shot range. I just hope that I don’t need a real quick follow-up shot….though if I do, the target should be closer and a bit easier to hit! 😉 memtb

I've always figured it takes a helluva man to pack one of those things and get it into play in a hurry. Me not being a big man, I prefer something lighter. A 400 grain 45 calibre should give a body all the penetration one needs.

That has been the thinking behind me leaving my .44 mag behind and typically carrying a .45 Super with 255 LFN GCs at 1050 fps. It's just easier to shoot accurately, and those 255s will dig in.

Couple of bear stopping episodes. I am not good for story telling sorry.

I lived remote in AK as a kid. I carried a short 44 mag super Blackhawk shooting 300+ gr at full tilt. I was charged at short range by a black bear for unknown reasons and I shot at point blank range. I was soooo slow out of the holster with that gun, thumbed it back and fired. I missed. I took a hit and went down. He overran me, wheeled around and then took off to my left as if he was scared? I don’t know but he gave me enough time to shoot again.

Second bear with problem. I stalked in the middle of the stream because the bear was in the brush up the bank and around the bend. When I rounded the corner bear was 20 yards. Dark and scrunched up looking back the bear was not at the angle I thought and I raked bear behind the ribs into the gut with a 458win mage 510 gr sp. The bear immediately charged and my second shot broke neck/shoulder into the chest. Again I got hit but bear was carcass .

2 dogs later as well, I would rather have the speed to draw and fire with low to moderate recoil.

Maybe don't smoke (so much) pot. Grin.

As to the op. Well, I have a lot to say, but I'll abbreviate.

I don't think a handgun is an overly heavy thing to carry. They can be downright handy when you're up to your armpits in moose guts and your rifle is not on you.

Only hits count, and not all of those do the job. I haven't seen a lot of big bore sixgun shooters with quick and accurate follow up shots. Especially shots 6 and up from that group are slow This is where I feel cartridges like the 10mm come into play. They allow even us average folk to shoot relatively quickly and relatively accurately while producing decent penetration. Not 460 penetration, but certainly faster than 460 follow up shots, and I think if we're being honest better than 460 accuracy on shots after the first. Add 15 round mags and quick reloads to the equation and things skew more in their favor.

I also kind of think the 458 socom has promise (as would the 450 bushmaster were there better bullets available) . If you can approximate 45/70 performance in a semi auto, with reasonably short barrel length, I see that as a win. Again, add 10 round capacity and removable mags to the equation and all the better. I will likely give this a shot as a camp defense weapon and something for the berry pickers to carry while we're out doing stupid things.

A couple years back, the moose camp across the river had company. They shot a sow and two 2 year old bears that were stealing meat off the meat pole in the middle of the night. I helped them drag the sow back to camp and she had a perfect 12 gauge hole 1" above the eyes and perfectly centered between them in the forehead. She went 20+ yards from where she was shot. That stuck with me.

I wouldn't shy away from hunting a bear with a big bore pistol, but I think they make a rather poor defensive weapon against the same animal. So I guess.... Another borough heard from.

Guy I fished with in AK was a retired Trooper. He used a 458 Win Mag to dispatch bears when he had to. He said it worked well on Grizzly and Browns. It was standing in the corner by his recliner.

The gun you have is criteria 1. Getting it into the fight is 2. Shooting it well enough is 3. Bullet able to penetrate vitals from the front makes all the above work. Without that you’re just making noise.
Pistol criteria starts with 356-358 flat nosed 158+cast at 900+ out of your pistol. I wonder what Phil’s chrono-Ed at?
If I know I am going to have to stop something in the pucker bushes then my 458wm is going with me.
If it’s a lovely day for a stroll along the salmon stream with a picnic basket, then a 629 5” loaded with fn cast 310’s at 1100 will be along for the trip.
Or my old beat up stainless Taurus 66 4” 357 with fn 172’s at 1100.
Since I don’t live or play in big bear country, regrettably, the reason the Taurus is old and beat up is that it is most often available, accurate and capable for the 2 legged predators I am most likely to encounter.

Excellent post!

500 S&W Mag 700 grain hard cast at 1238 fps via LILGUN.

I hear that the recoil is surprisingly mild! 🥴 memtb

Not really LOL

shotgun has always been a great defense gun against man or bear tuff to beat.

I definitely disagree with that.

A ridiculously heavy and long bullet that may penetrate like you think.it will. 500 Nitro's shoot 570 grain bullets

Can you expand on that?

Except every time this subject comes up, guys with a large amount of experience with bears come on with evidence that shotguns really aren’t that great. Buckshot isn’t a reliable performer and only certain slugs can be counted on. They’re less handy than a pistol even when equipped with a pistol grip which almost no one can shoot with any accuracy. A rifle is a far more effective tool.

No way am I relying on shot to get through heavy hair and having energy to get deep and kill fast. Plus it is going to expand very little if any at all, minimal energy transfer, the .33 caliber pellets aren't very heavy.

Yeah, I know there is 000 which probably works fine as long as everything goes smooth but if it were going smooth you wouldn't be in the situation to defend yourself.

At least with a large caliber rifle you can break bones that bullet is capable of breaking several in one shot.

Never been in bear country but I can see something in .33 or larger and an 18-20" barrel being mighty handy.

I'm not an expert on this, but, if I was going with a longarm for bear defense, I would, for example, pick my .308 AR10 over a 12-gauge every time. I've shot deer with both 12-gauge slugs and 168-gr lead bullets, and in those limited instances, I found that each .308 round did more damage. And, with the AR10, the .308 recoils a lot less, and accurate follow-up shots would be way faster.


When I first went to hunt in AK, I ignored some advice not to bother to bring a handgun, and I personally am glad I did. I just didn't find it practical to have my rifle (or a shotgun, if I had had one) in the ready position at all times when doing various things, including skinning animals; relieving myself at camp; etc. ...

On my first AK hunt, I carried my FA .454 with 360gr HC rounds with a MV near 1,800 fps.



That may be a good option, but, on my second trip, I felt more confident with my 10mm G20 with a 6" bbl (didn't have my G40 yet) with 200gr HC bullets going about 1,315 fps. I know that may seem crazy to some, but I just can get my first shot off quicker with that and I can fire it accurately at around three-rounds per second for however many seconds the bear, or God, gives me, which I can't (myself) do with the .454.

FWIW, this bear jumped forward about 15 feet when hit by my .375 Wby with a 300gr NP before then dying instantly.



That round blew up much of his insides before exiting. So, I suppose, no matter what you hit them with, they can still release a lot of energy after being hit with just about anything.

A rather large inland grizzly was long ago bonked with a couple shots to the bean with a 22 long.

I prefer big bore handguns unless given the rifle option.
Those of you that choose the 454, 460 or maybe the 500 S&W(guessing here as I am not familiar with that one) might want to consider lower pressure loads. One shot out of a 454 in a shoot now situation and I am deaf above 6K hz. There is a CONSTANT chorus of crickets in my ears as well. Running a heavier bullet at slower vels and lower pressure will save your hearing. I don't need to read from the crowd that says I would rather be alive and deaf than... . While that is true, being alive and not deaf, is always better. Talk (yell) to a cop who had to discharge his 357 inside of a car, to find out that I am not kidding.
I consider my 475 Linebaugh at 1250 fps as good as it gets. Because I don't practice with a single action much, I usually carry a Redhawk 45 Colt at 1250 fps. I have carried a Dan Wesson 44 mag at 1250 fps a good bit. Since I lost most of my hearing the 44 mag is out - I don't want to loose any more. It is a pressure thing that makes the bark sharp and does the damage. Another one not mentioned here, but will take your hearing is a 357 Max.
Shoot straight and HEAR to tell about it!!

I have been in bear country and have taken a few, with a rifle, and mostly because they were in the wrong spot at the wrong time.

If I am hunting I am carrying a rifle and a hand cannon of some sort, typically mdl 29 in a chest rig. If I am on shore fishing walking etc, I would be carrying a pistol and possibly a shotgun if I am particularly concerned about bears. Usally I am not.

Regarding shotgun vs pistol, I would contend the shotgun is more effective, just considering shot placement, in other words I would prefer some double ought hit the bear, rather than a miss with a handgun, which is often likely, bear attacks are fast and I would consider someone lucky if they got off two shots before the bear was on em, they can be seriously sneaky bastards...

Typically alternate between slugs and double ought.

So, safe to say you have never been charged by a bear, as you have never been in bear country, yet somehow feel qualified to dispense advice?

Never said it was advice. Said if I were in bear country.

A lot of things I would do if I were I certain areas but doesn't make me any kind of expert or giver of any advice. Merely things that I would be comfortable with.

LOL, man that's funny!

KB

AR 10 is heavy, maybe heavier than a pump shotgun... regardless, follow up shots on bear attacks are usally wishful thinking, one might get another opportunity to hit some fur, but I wouldn't call it a follow up shot.

I think a 10mm is a great option, if I didn't already have a 44, that's would be my choice

On my first trip to AK on an outfitted hunt, one of the pilots that flew us was a member of the "bear bait" club. His story happened while he was working as a bear guard for a surveyor crew and he carried a shotgun as his primary weapon of choice. A call came in that one of the surveyors had found what was described as a wolf den. As the guy working as bear guard approached the "wolf" den, momma bear came out and he got one shot off before she had him pinned face down. Chewed on him a bit and bounced up and down on him a bit, then she wondered off about 100 yards and died.

So, if a guy only has time to get one shot off, better make it count.

Copy THAT!

Especially as I find plenty of weed in the mountains, but don't smoke it.

Doesn't take much for Canadians to get an erection.

There is a reason a 12 gauge slug gun is popular with bear guides

Sure, besides a 600 gr Brenneke, lack of penetration with common slugs and buckshot. Shoot a plain Foster slug out and you can split one even in a deer. In Alaska you always run into some dip$hit that tells you about alternating slugs and buckshot for bears as if it was some sort of “formula” for success. Anything low recoiling and penetrative would work. If it was pumps and levers I’d rather have a 44 lever 250 at 1100-1200 fps. Or even a bolt 308 over a 12 gauge. With bears of course it’s a choose your own adventure, people have both succeeded and failed in all circumstances… hiding, fighting back, this gun and that.

Not sure which guides you’re talking about but I guess that would fall into the category of what a PH in Africa or an Elk guide in Idaho would know about rifle cartridges and projectiles… not much. Cept maybe Phil and a few others.
You can certainly use a 12 gauge but it’s probably one of the $hittiest ways of getting something done with the given recoil.

My AR10 is about a pound lighter than most--a DPMS GII Hunter.

Phil Shoemaker killed a brown bear boar by emptying an entire 9mm into the bear. I'm not a personal expert, but it seems like follow-up shots are possible in some instances.

That was one well known story regarding a experienced guide, not a typical example, keep trying though

Ever heard of hardcast....


Lol

What’s the point of this?

Obviously you don't get it... think hard, take a deep breath & watch it again, then think some more.
Dont be that dipstick in ideho that thinks Alaskans that use slugs/double ought are dip schits.

No. I'm not trying anything. I've now heard from the "Garden Island" man. Your opinion is the gold standard. I'm a Marine War Veteran. I completely defer to you as to whether I, or anyone else, other than a particular guide, can fire a semi-auto rifle or handgun rapidly at a target under pressure when their life is threatened. Thank you for your wisdom!!!! Just to confirm my absolute faith in your complete knowledge of all things bear related, what is your basis for that? I mean, just to be sure, which I mostly am. I don't doubt your omnipotence in all things. I just want to reinforce it so that I can tell all I know with credibility about the bear-defense prophet and all of his knowledge about how what cannot be done, including firing a second round into a bear about 1/5th of a second after the first shot. I adore your knowledge and unbelievable style in your advocacy thereof.

Yeah I was expecting the 45-70 to do much better than it did

I would have to agree. Add in there heavier weight bullets tend to shoot higher.

Yep I don’t mind saying so at all… I don’t get it.
Having owned 45-70s, 458s, 416s, 500 NE 3” and A-SQ, 375s and cast my own. Again I am not sure what you are pointing out? A soft swaged 12 ga lead slug breaking a cinder block? Big whoop. A hard cast 45-70 load shot at no man’s land velocity for a hard cast breaking a cinder block? Big whoop. Incidentally, I’d take the 45-70 over the 12 ga any day but that sure as hell wouldn’t be my load.
So tell me again because I don’t connect the dots nonsense videos of brick and frying pan shooting videos. What got you so excited and verified whatever stance you have on this?

Sorry dude, although it is much appreciated, I cant stick with your long winded admiration and didn't finish your tirade.

The point is a 9mm in the hands of a experienced guide is usefull. Do you think that would be his first choice? Do you think multiple shots during a bear attack is typical? Do you think?

What's your personal experience in bear killing or hunting was one of my points. I never above advocated a 9mm. Yeah, I think if you have a good semi-auto and some competence, you can fire a second shot about 1/5th of a second after the first at the same target. What is your personal knowledge that disputes that? What experience do you have on this? Simple question.

Are you daft? Or just wish to as argue? Giving you the benefit and assume that arguing on the internet fulfills some need you have.
Go back and read what has been said, slowly. Its quite simple.

"'This hunter was walking through some downed timber when he was attacked by a bear at a very close range,' says Morgan Jacobsen, Information and Education Program manager for Montana Fish, Wildlife & Parks, Region 3. But, like in last week’s attacks, the hunter was prepared. 'During the attack, he shot at the bear several times with a pistol,' Jacobsen says. 'The bear subsequently left.' ..." https://www.kxlf.com/news/fourth-hu...gravelly-mountains-within-about-one-week

I covered this earlier, if yer going to interject, please read the thread.

Thats not a bear attack, that's a thwarted bear attack. Two completely different things. If you have time, you have options... bear attacks leave few options. People have in their head how these things play out, problem is bears have their own playbook.

No, you didn't. You said that bear go the other way from you, but you didn't identify any experiences with bear defense. Prove me wrong.

For criss sakes, are you from idehoe as well?

Late to the game.
Cant read.
Love to argue.

Please answer, rather than deflect. What experience do you have, Oracle?

Yes, the bears now run from me, fughing hilarious.
Keep in mind, bear hunting and bear attacks are two completely different activities.