Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Another Bear Stopping Thread

We haven’t had a good “piss’n match” in some time on this topic! But, I’d like to stir the pot a little by asking this question.

Would you take/choose a large bore (.458Win., 470 NE, or similar) African Rifle over a large capacity 10 mm semi auto handgun to stop an attacking bear? Or…. would some of you opt for a big-bore handgun!

Take a look at the following article! I could not get the link to open….so copied! There may be some surprises awaiting you! My choice remains unchanged ! memtb



This is a test. Rank the following in order from that offering the deepest to the shallowest penetration: .500 Nitro Express, .458 Win. Mag., .45-70, .500 Linebaugh and .45 Colt. If you're like most shooters, you would probably say they are already in the right order -- and you would be wrong. The true ranking is neither a guess nor an opinion, but rather fact gained under controlled conditions. I have just returned from the first annual Big Bore Sixgun Seminar hosted in Cody, Wyo., by custom gun-maker John Linebaugh.

Most -- make that all -- seminars I have attended in the past have been presented by firearms manufacturers with the express purpose of showcasing their products. This seminar was quite different. Over 100 of us gathered to discuss big bore sixguns, how they work, why they work and, most importantly, why they are so effective on big game. No one was selling anything except truth.

We spent the first morning discussing big bore sixguns with Linebaugh and then the afternoon was spent doing actual penetration tests with the biggest sixguns and rifles available.

For any cartridge to be effective -- whether it's fired from a sixgun or rifle -- the "Four Ps" must be in place. Those are Placement, Power, Performance and Penetration. We define these terms as follows.

Placement: where the bullet strikes the intended target.

Power: the muzzle energy or TKO value.

Performance: whether the bullet expands, holds together, or comes apart.


Penetration: how deeply the bullet travels in the target medium, especially in a large animal.

Certainly a solid bullet, whether hardcast or jacketed, can be expected to penetrate much deeper than a jacketed hollowpoint or soft nose. That is a given. The wise hunter decides, according to his intended quarry, whether he needs ultimate expansion, deepest possible penetration or a combination of both.

As a shooter of big bore sixguns for well over four decades, and also one who knows how effective sixguns can be on big game, I must say I was surprised at how effective various sixgun cartridges proved to be during the penetration tests. For the shooting and experimentation, the standard bundles of newspaper soaked in livestock watering tanks were used. No guess. No golly. No opinion.

Going back to the five cartridges mentioned at the beginning the results were most interesting. Randy Garrett's .45-70 Hammerhead 530 gr. hardcast at 1,550 fps went 55" into wet newspaper. A 495 gr. hardcast .500 Linebaugh fired from a 5.5" sixgun with a muzzle velocity of 1,270 fps was right behind it at 52".

The .500 Nitro Express with a solid weighing 570 grs. came in third at 48", followed by the .458 Win. Mag. with a 500 gr. solid traveling at a muzzle velocity of 2,260 fps and 47" of penetration. Finally, the .45 Colt with a 350 gr. hardcast bullet at 1,400 fps gave 43" of penetration, or only 5" less than the .500 Nitro and 4" less than the .458.

Of course, the .45 Colt load tested is only for use in the Freedom Arms .454 or custom five-shot .45 Colt revolvers.

Other Cartridges

The .44 Magnum was not really given a thorough testing as the only load on hand was a 250 gr. Keith bullet at 1,200 fps which went 27" into the wet newsprint. At next year's seminar, hopefully we will have a larger variation of .44 Magnum loads to test, especially with 300 gr. bullets at muzzle velocities from 1,200 to 1,400 fps.

We also had only one load for the new .480 Ruger, Hornady's factory offering of a 325 gr. XTP at 1,350 fps. This round is not designed for deepest penetration but did expand well and travel 17" into the newsprint.

How did the truly big bore sixguns compare, the Big Berthas, the .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .475 and .500 Linebaughs? For the .45 Colt, in addition to the already mentioned load, a 310 gr. Keith at 1,250 fps -- one of my favorite loads and safe for use in Ruger's Blackhawk or Bisley -- penetrated 36", while the 300 gr. LBT traveling at 1,180 fps penetrated 2" deeper.


Using Cor-Bon's 360 gr. bonded core at 1,500 fps in the .454 yielded 45" of penetration. Moving up to the .475 Linebaugh, a 420 gr. LBT at 1,335 fps did 47" while the same bullet at an easy-shooting 1,050 fps still penetrated to 40".

We have already mentioned the second-place finishing .500 Linebaugh load. Others from this category of the biggest of the big bores included a 480 gr. Keith-style bullet at 1,200 fps and 41"; a 435 gr. LBT at 1,270 fps, 38"; and a 435 gr. LBT at only 1,000 fps still went 34" into the test medium.

This tells me that for most of us, and the game we pursue, either a .475 or .500 Linebaugh traveling at a relatively sedate 1,000 fps will do anything and everything we could ever hope for.

Actually, we can draw the further conclusion that the .44 Magnum with a 250 gr. bullet at 1,200 fps or a 300 gr. .45 Colt at 1,250 fps will certainly handle any deer that walks -- but then we already knew that!

Now we know with actual experimentation why it is big bore sixguns perform so well on large or dangerous animals including Cape buffalo, elephant, lion and the big bears of Alaska.

The big bore sixguns in this case, from top left clockwise Ruger .44 Magnum Freedom Arms .454 and Ruger Custom .45 Colt.

Ruger Custom .500 Linebaugh and Freedom Arms .475 Linebaugh can actually out penetrate most rifles.
"Who says the .500 Linebaugh doesn't kick?"

Cartridge Bullet Velocity Penetration

.45-70 530 gr. hardcast lead 1,550 fps 55"
.500 Linebaugh 495 gr. hardcast lead 1,270 fps 52"
.500 Nitro Express 570 gr. FMJ solid 2,000 fps 48"
.458 Win. Mag. 500 gr. FMJ solid 2,260 fps 47"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,335 fps 47"
.454 Casull 360 gr. honded core 1,500 fps 45"
.45 Colt 350 gr. hardcast lead 1,400 fps 43"
.500 Linebaugh 480 gr. Keith 1,200 fps 41"
.475 Linebaugh 420 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,050 fps 40"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,270 fps 38"
.45 Colt 300 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,180 fps 38"
.45 Colt 310 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,250 fps 36"
.500 Linebaugh 435 gr. LBT SWC lead 1,000 fps 34"
.44 Magnum 250 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,200 fps 27"
.480 Ruger 325 gr. XTP 1,350 fps 17"

AR15, 458 Socom, it will ruin their day

I'm taking the big bore rifle

I think a 45-70 lever might be a good choice.

12 gauge 870 short barrel with Brenneke slugs. Not that I have any experience with bears. But this is a fearsome weapon.

Ron

I like it

this should be entertaining ....

That 325gn XTP would be my very LAST choice for my .480s.

Brenneke Black Magic slugs (600gn) would be my first choice.

405gn WFN and/or

380gn copper WFN

for .45/70.

Soooooo, no one is gonna choose a semi auto 10 mm over the big bore rifles!

Though, I surprised that no one choose one of the big bore revolvers. Easier to carry than the rifle as it can be on person at all times while working around camp, ect., faster follow up shots if you have time for a follow up shot than a bolt gun. Though a double rifle would be faster than all others…..for two shots. And….the big bore revolvers out penetrated most of the rifles. Penetration is a nice thing to have on a large animal….more penetration generally means more stuff damaged!

I’d suggest that this test shows the big bore revolvers can hold their on and certainly be effective in a defense situation. Perhaps even superior in some situations! memtb

.45 Colt 310 gr. Keith SWC lead 1,250 fps 36"


Ain't no such critter. Elmer never designed a 310 grain bullet for the .45 Colt. If he didn't design it you'll have to call it something else besides a Keith. Folks get mighty loose with that name.

It probably would have been more appropriate to say….Keith style, rather than Keith! Though, I hope you got a little more from the tests than just that! memtb

I have a cousin who spent a great deal of time in Alaska while he was in the military. His take on the subject was: "You can kill 'em, but you can't stop 'em."

I spent 7 years in Alaska and my take is if you can Kill them, you stop them

I've done a lot of testing of big-bore bullets in tough media (dry glossy magazines, plus wood planks and hard cover dry books). There were a few surprises, like a 500gr Speer African Grand Slam making only 6" penetration, lost the front core retaining 310gr (62%), and a 350gr TSX giving complete penetration, stopping at the last panel of the second box with two planks of wood between the boxes, retaining 100% unfired weight, and fully expanded at 18" penetration .

That's just one thing. A 330gr Barnes Banded passed through all of it and may still be going! A 350gr Hor RN was stopped at 4", lost its core and the remaining jacket weighed 51% with some smeared lead attached... and so on.

The point? There are too many variables to be pontifical! Impact velocity, media type, bullet weight, construction and shape are all players. Some high velocity projectiles penetrated the most and others were defeated early on due to their construction and shape. A 480gr Hor DGX passed completely through, hitting a ledge behind leaving a perfect .458" imprint and that bullet was never found along with a few others. And so on...

I've used a variety of bullets (hardcast, mono-expanders and regular cup-and -cores from my .45-70s and .458s on black bears, and all I can say about that is Big Bores will stop 'em right there!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Quote from Bob:

I've used a variety of bullets (hardcast, mono-expanders and regular cup-and -cores from my .45-70s and .458s on black bears, and all I can say about that is Big Bores will stop 'em right there!



Pretty accurate summary there Bob! When things can potentially get ugly, there is no substitute for cubic inches…..provided quantity bullets are used!


Heck….I forgot to insert a “needmore” into the “stopping” cartridge possibilities list! 🤔 memtb

MEMTB: The Linebaugh Seminar data you presented appears to be from the first seminar. There is much more data from later seminars which is more extensive. As an example a test was added that included cow bones to see how that affected penetration. More loads are available such as .480 Ruger data with cast bullets, Buffalo Bore loaded ammunition, etc.

I shot a wounded black bear once from less than 20’ as it ran towards me. In the chest with a 510gr WW SP from my 458. Bear rolled, changed direction and ran 50 or more yards before stopping dead, happened so fast I didn’t have time to shoot again. 6 1/2’ black bear.

A buddy shot a charging 7 foot grizzly in the center chest with a WW white box 240 SP out of a 6” 44 magnum from about 40-50 feet. He folded and died instantly, never twitched.

I shot another wounded black bear that was over 6 feet with a 150 Norma out of my 300 Savage, he rolled and never moved.

A good friend killed a 6 1/2’ grizzly that was trying to eat him once in the eye socket from 12 feet with his 2” 44 Special with 250gr Keith style bullet doing about 900fps. He too folded up and never twitched.

Watched a guy shoot a small, 4’ 4” black bear through the shoulders with a 45/70 and 325gr Hornady Leverevolution factory loads. It ran 40 or 50 yards at high speed before rolling and flopping around bawling for a while before dying, had a 3” exit hole through the scapula.

Watched a guy shoot a 5 foot bear through the chest with a 375 H&H with Federal premium 300gr Partition ammo. It died pretty quickly but the bullet was perfectly mushroomed and under the hide on the off side. 60 yard shot and didn’t even hit a rib.

Another guy shot a 7 foot grizzly repeatedly through the chest with a 20” 458Socom and Barnes 300ttsx bullets. It didn’t charge or run thankfully because it looked like it had been killed with a .458 diameter drill bit.

On other occasions even bigger black bears would fold right up with a well placed shot from a 100gr 243 or a 130 out of a 270. This plus many other examples I witnessed told me that the only thing that could be counted on to absolutely stop one now either coming or going was a spine or head shot. Everything else is hope and speculation

This bids fair to be epic. I can't wait for the obligatory "alternate slugs with buckshot" guy to pipe in, or the "I'd use a scenar because it smoked an elk." guy, or all the other ignorant options to pop up.

bobmn, Thanks, I’ll try and find it! memtb