Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Bear creek arsenal. Any good?

My first ever post in the AR forum. Needing an opinion.

I have an AR in the A2 configuration, Armalite lower with an M-16 upper. Looking for something that would give me a bit more accuracy. Looking at buying a complete upper assembly with the same 20” barrel, sight, etc.

Bear creek offers several of this type @ 20”. $349 with a 1/8” twist. $379 with a heavy barrel 1/7”, $399 with the same but a billet upper.


Leaning towards the heavy, billet at $399.

Any feedback on Bear Creek I’d need to know about? Thanks in advance. I’m not looking at a bench rest quality combination…..just something that would outperform the M-16 configuration.

I see Bear Creek has gotten into the hammer forging business as well. I would buy this before the other. A lot of folks don’t like bear creek. I have one and it shoots fine for what it is and what I paid for it.

https://www.bearcreekarsenal.com/556-20-bn-government-barrel-1-8-twist-rifle-std-rc-a2-m14.html

J, do you think the one he's asking about would be more accurate than what he already has? I'm also wondering how his rifle actually shoots and what ammo he's tried in it. I have had and seen many HBAR's shoot lights out. I'm sure you have seen the same thing. Those older Bushmasters, Colts, and even Oly Arms even shot well. It is my understanding that you shoot those high power rifle shoots with all the NRA rules and such. What have you seen? Some of the old guys I shoot with served in Vietnam, but they love their old A2's. Most use Colts, and the others I listed. One was a gunny sgt that shot at Quantico. Another bad assed old guy a retired Air Borne Ranger. Most guys served in the military, and they know how to shoot those rifles. Having some experience with the Windham Weaponry barrels, I would also consider an upper from them. Again, I'm wondering what the real world results would be with the cheap upper the OP is asking about? Have you seen anyone in your shooting circuit/world use them??? I also believe he's wanting an A2 configuration. Would it be better to buy a really good barrel, A2 upper receiver and run that? Or would you suggest he buys an A4 upper, so he can scope it and evaluate the accuracy/precision and then switch back to irons. Just to be sure it's the rifle and not the shooter causing this "poor accuracy"..

Godogs57, what ammo have you tried and what kind of accuracy do you typically get with your rifle. What upper do you actually have?? Colt, Bushmaster, Olympic Arms etc. etc...

All very good questions Lawrence, hardly anyone is shooting AR15’s with irons in NRA/CMP high power matches. One of our last holdouts a high master traded his irons in for a 1-4.5 scope last year. So to answer one of your questions I would run a A4 so one can run an optic. Our club had 6 rock river NM AR15 we sold them and they were hard to sell even at $600 because these were the old school A2 I know of at least 2 that were converted to A4’s. No one in our shooting group uses bear creek anything. Most are using complete uppers or barrels from WOA. I’m odd man out I use Bison Armory barrels now. Also anymore it’s getting harder to find barrels cut for the F block. Seems everyone has gone A4 route with float tubes. In the world of high power everyone seems to gravitate to what’s working that’s why WOA is very predominant. Load data everyone is using Varget/RL15, those combos are winning at Nationals. If someone showed up to nationals with a bear creek upper, ammo loaded with staBALL and won it all. Then everyone would be buying bear creek uppers/barrels using staBALL. One last note shooting irons is becoming somewhat of a lost art. One other thing that wasn’t touched on what trigger is he using? If it’s milspec then that can be part of the inaccuracy he’s experiencing. Right now those larue mbt on sale for $89 buck.

Thank you very much for the informative answer to my questions. In the back of my mind I'm thinking WOA as well, but that's to win matches and I believe the op is mainly looking for something that is more accurate out of the box than his current set up. It still blows my mind, wondering why his rifle is not shooting well. Maybe it's worn out? But that is hard to do with those chrome lined barrels. You really have to try hard to do that. You are right, shooting irons is somewhat a "lost art". Man that is a shame too!!! I imagine if someone doesn't have a lot of experience with an AR rifle, it could be a reason they are not shooting it well. Guys like Montanaman have said shooting an AR is different than shooting a bolt action, and sometimes harder to get used to. He's right. Also guys like Rost here have probably forgotten more than a lot of us know about shooting these rifles with irons. Not that he's old, just experienced. These AR's take some getting used to, but once you find what works, stick with that. Your suggestion about a better trigger is a good one. Even one of my favorite triggers is usually only $79 over at Right to Bear Arms. Hopefully Godogs57 will take the info that you provided in your post and use it. He might be an awesome shooter with irons and an AR, but what I've seen is a lot are not. Then they assume there is something wrong with their rifle. Maybe he will answer some of the questions I asked, so maybe it helps us understand what he's really working with..

Hey Lawrence. Hope you’re doing well. This is a standard M-16 upper, Colt. It is not the HBAR heavy barrel. Standard weight. I get 4” or so groups at 100 but honestly I haven’t tried many loads yet to see how it’ll do. Shot 75 grain BTHP match and both Varget and 15. Oh, 3” groups or so at 100 and that was it. I’m just figuring I could probably do better.

I wonder if you got a 1-9 twist barrel 10-15plus yrs ago was very common to get 1-9 twist barrels on factory AR15’s. Have you tried 68’s-69’s? 2009 I bought a brand new Bushmaster it had a 223 chamber with a 1-9 twist barrel. That’s another thing a lot of AR15 back then we’re cut with 223 Remington. Things have really changed in the AR15 world in the 10-15yrs.

I've had two Bear Creek 6.5 Grendel barrels.
neither was a very good experience... the best one might regularly shoot 4 in at 100 m with the same loads my Faxon barrel , PSA uppper and ruger American bolt gun chambered the same all shot said load under moa. and yes I tried many other loads in the Bear Creek barrels but to no avail.
high price tomato stakes

Doing good my friend. Nice to see you post here in this forum. I still consider myself new to these AR's. These guys here know a lot about them though. What most of us here believe is a good barrel is key for good accuracy. 79s mentioned WOA, which is White Oak Armament. Those guys have phenomenal stuff and are usually quite accurate. Above standard for sure. There are some guys here like splattermattic that have had good luck with Bear Creek, maybe a couple others have had good luck with them as well. But that is not the norm. Most here don't really like them, maybe because they had bad luck before. I think they have gotten better over the last couple years or so, according to what I've read here. Thanks for answering my questions. I'm assuming those groups are 3 shots? Do you have any AR's set up with scopes?

No.

Run away screaming.
bear creek completely screwed up a factory upper in 7.62x39. Barrel was short chambered. Sent 3 or 4 spent brass to show it was test fired.

those were lies.

*Anyone that knows about AR's understand that if the bolt won't close, it won't fire.

Son sent upper back to them. After a month+ of them having it, son complained to classic firearms, which sold him the upper. Classic emailed the company on his behalf (which wouldn't answer emails or phone from my sons calls) and they finally send him the upper back around week 6.

Only this time, the dumbasses put a 223 bolt in a 7.62x39 barreled upper. So, as you would imagine that too wouldn't work either.

Son called and complained to classic again, and they told him to send it back to them again. Son said no, he wanted a refund. Classic didn't want to because it was a "factory warranty issue".

Son told him either send him a return shipping label back to them so they could deal with it and they still didn't want to. Son went and disputed the charge with the bank.

So, based on these experiences, not just no, but hell no.

They were also raided by ice and apparently had a bunch of illegals working for them. They also do business as moore manufacturing, which equally sucks.

https://www.wfmynews2.com/article/n.../83-882ce58d-4435-4178-985a-8ca4ecaa8027

Oh boy the infamous raid from 4yrs ago. still being brought up..

Looking to build on a stripped lower I had laying around.
Didn't really want a 5.56/.223, so went barrel shopping.
About the third site had a BCA heavy, fluted barrel in .223 Wylde.
I'm a tightwad and the barrel was priced at $58!
Shooting dude!

I have some folks I won't do business with other folks flock to and vice versa.
Sometimes folks just do weird she-eye-tee!
Who knows why?
Headache, hemorrhoids, hangovers, ingrown toenail!
I dunno?

Ya know what’s worse than bringing up the ICE raid from 4 years ago? People ignoring all the BCA horror stories.

BCA is bottom of the barrel trash, made by a trash company, probably run by trash people who live in a trailer with trash in the front yard.

Jesus show us on the teddy bear where the bad people touched you.. lol… What’s wrong with living in a trailer?

BCA upper, PSA Lower

300BLK - subsonic - 50 yards - 11 shots - 210gr cast lead

Nothing, as long as you don’t live in a trailer AND work at the dump.

I should add that I did call BCA this afternoon prior to this post. My phone call was the cause of me asking you fine folks opinion. A call to the”technical advice” extension resulted in the most underwhelming response I’ve witnessed in a long while.

I swear, listening to whoever it was answering my call…..he was either on meth, stoned or drunk as hell. Perhaps all three. He could not form a coherent sentence to the most basic questions. “Uhhh……uhhh…..well……….uh what was your (sniff sniff) question? “ After that his mumbling only got worse, and more random.

That’s what prompted me to inquire about them with the Campfire Illuminati.

Calling Windham Monday. Their website has the package I want “available on back order “……par for the course for me.

Windham has some nice stuff. I use their barrels. They also send the matching bolts when you order a barrel. Or at least the last 3 barrels I bought they did that with. I don't know what the rest of the guys think about Windham Weaponry, but their Varmint Exterminator 20" stainless fluted barrels have been damn good. I'll bet their other 20" barrels would be good too. I'm not sure where they get the blanks or who actually does the machining though.. Maybe someone here does? Here's how one of my favorite 20" Windham barrels shoots:


That was at a match my club held a while ago.

And my iron sighted Noveske, that day:


At my clubs AR shoot a couple years ago, I had to put my Noveske away because it is like cheating. Pulled a brand new to me Colt pre ban out and flung 10 shots at the target during a match:


I let a couple other guys shoot it in that match and they were shooting 3" groups with it.. 79s question about the twist rate is a great one. If it has a 1 in 9, that is alright. But you have to use the right bullets in it. 69 grainers work just fine in my experience. I really like the 69SMK. My Bushmaster 20" barrel likes 69gr bullets.

3" 3 shot groups would have me tearing that barrel off and throwing it in the trash can. I don't even like 3" 3 shot groups at 400 yards..

That's an HBAR though. The Colt above uses a skinny barrel, but still shoots damn well for what it is..

If BCA is acting like that on a phone call, I'd move my business elsewhere. Let us know what Windham says. Thanks!

Gees well aren’t you all high and mighty…

I have several and they do their job.

If you want to go cheap, buy PSA.

Their prices are pretty decent & they've raised their game significantly & have a pretty broad range of product.

Anyone dealing with BCA after all the horror stories, gets whatever they deserve...................AR roulette.

Hard to fix stupid (or cheap) sometimes.

Rock on boys.

MM

I’ll be in Charleston in two weeks and plan on stopping by PSA just to see what they got. I’ve had PSA AR’s before and was not too impressed. Probably just looking for an excuse to visit a LGS.

Traded for a BC 350 Legend upper 2 years ago. It was the biggest POS I've ever owned. It shot patterns not groups. A couple of friends experience the same results with BC uppers. NEVER AGAIN!

I have a 450 Bushmaster upper from BCA. Functions fine and good groups. Seems like luck of the draw.

Guess I'm just lucky, I have 2 BCA uppers, a 50 Beowulf and a 350 led. Both shoot fine, and functions as they should.

At least they are cheap enough that you can throw a new barrel on them and/or other parts and be about even.

Whatever. Be prepared to do some basement smithing or put up with some idiosyncrasies.

Looking harder at Windham or White Oak. Already dealing with a Bartelin that is refusing to behave on my 300. Hearing Bartelin is having problems, which would fit my situation right now.

I may buy some of their side-charging uppers for suppressor host, straight pull, hunting uppers….but their barrels are [bleep]. I’ve had two buddies bring BCA 300 uppers to me with issues, that would disassemble loaded rounds when unloading, leaving the bullet stuck in the neck and dumping powder everywhere.

Wyndham is the original Bushmaster employees, IIRC, that started up their own shop with the original facility, after the company was sold. I’ve had a few of their rifles, and they were good ARs. Didn’t keep them long enough or use for enough crazy hard or long range work to say if they compare with ‘top shelf’, but I’d have no problem buying from them.

What's the problem with the Bartlien?

Just my POV, but I'd have a hard time justifying a Bartlien on a 300.

As for PSA, don't know how long ago you had any of their stuff, but they've definitely upped their game over the last 3 years or so...........they're using a lot of FN chrome lined barrels which are very good barrels for something not stainless. And they're offering some options with top shelf parts. FN generally gets their gas ports sized right.

For the most part, I usually build, & tend toward high end parts, but we've bought 3 of their P&W'ed 14.7" uppers, 2 with Geiselle rails, one with their rail, & all 3 have been dead solid perfect in performance with all the accuracy you can use with a red dot sight.

Here's a pic of one of them with the Geiselle rail.

MM

Very nice rifle. What about Aero Precision? The BA barrels they use seem to be pretty good. I'm also wondering about Stag.. Larue seems to have a following, but I don't believe Larue makes anything like what the OP is asking about. Just so I am reading this right, the OP is wanting an AR with an A2 front sight. Does it have to have a carry handle or can it use a flip up rear sight? I think being able to run an optic to diagnose precision would be a good idea, as 79s also agreed. Didn't hear from the OP if that was acceptable or not. Also, wasn't brownells building some A2 rifles a while back? I believe you could get an upper from them, but not sure about right now.. If so, how did they shoot? I saw some youtube videos on them, but like most of the youtube videos, guys can't shoot for schidt there. The only mother fugger than can shoot on Youtube with an m16 style rifle is one I've posted videos of before:



Any of you guys, besides 79s go to AR shoots or the like? So maybe you can share some of your experience on what you've seen. I know rost has shot the hell out of these, and some supposed camp perry guys here.. I've shot with some high master class shooters at my club. They come from the big city, but their rifles are no where near what the oldschool M16 looked like. They look more like a space gun to me. Very heavy long barrels with aperture sights in the front and even magnified rear apertures. Those guys shoot well enough, but it only forces me to pull my noveske out. Boy oh boy, talk about sniveling. Those guys hate getting beat..

I have never owned a BCA lower but have dabbled in a few uppers. The first was a M4 looking carbine upper in 6.5 Grendel. MOA shooter and never once failed to function. The second a 350 legend that needed a bit of love to get to function properly, that was a magazine issue. still shoots great with cast and jacketed loads. The last was a 223 Wilde upper I got for the parts to install a 300 Ham'r barrel on. Well crap that durn barrel is a tackdriver. No function issues at all, I recently ran 300 rounds through it testing a pile of old magazines with cheap steel cased smmo and not a single problem of any kind. Gave it a deep clean and expect it to do the same thing again. I guess I have been lucky. My last PSA lower gave me issues with the bolt release and the trigger. Easy fixes but still.

The Bartelin was suggested to me by my gunsmith. He’s done several rifles for me and they’ve all been tackdrivers. This was a 700 300 Win originally. Back in the good old days of production. Ohhh but that wasn’t powerful enough. I had to have a 300 RUM. He suggested back then, a Shilen match barrel, along with his own muzzle brake. Life was good. 1/2” groups pretty much every time. After a dozen or so years I grew tired of getting the living hell kicked out of me (the brake could only do so much). Told my friend John I’m ready to go back to the original chambering. Was told Bartelin is the barrel making all the noise right now…good stuff. The rifle would shoot decent one day, ok the next but never ever a three, four shot group with bullets touching. Inch and a half, two inches. I got much better with the Shilen/ RUM combo. Thought it was the scope. Got rid of a perfectly good S&B Klassic. Tried a Leupold VX5-HD. No good. New Schmidt Stratos…..inch and a half.

The barrel has 175-180 rounds down the tube and no group or bullet combination clicks.

If, and that’s a big IF now, I swap out barrels again I’ll probably hit up Krieger.

You know I do. All my friends are Service Rifle knuckledraggers. We are all sporting 4.5x scopes and lots of UBR stocks. That's exactly what we call those rifles, "space guns". In HP that's Match Rifle class. Ineligible for Leg Points. Lot of guys go to them once they've got their Distinguished Badge. The sights are easier to use for old guys than A2 sights. Now that scopes are legal, most guys are sticking with Service Rifle.

I've had that experience too and reached the same conclusion.

Yep at EIC match those space guns stay at home. We have one last hold out who refuses to shoot AR15 for leg match and drags out the old M1A, for the leg match. Shooting irons is fine and dandy but unless you have phenomenal eye sight shooting out 600yds sucks. Lol.

I watched Norm Crawford shoot a clean 600yd match at Butner with M14. The conditions were not optimimal, but not terrible. Hot with a fish tail from 6.

Watched him clean 600 in anther match while having to stop and take care of one of his kids that was cutting up behind the line. The kid must have been fearless, I always thought that if I looked at Crawford wrong he'd just kill me on the spot.....

I legged out with a M1A in the late 90's. I've been out of it for a long time but I'll bet the "good" scores from that time wouldn't even make the cut now.

Moved to a bolt match rifle asap. My eyesight was terrible and getting worse, very nearsighted all my life and then the presbyopia on top of that. A regular Mr. Magoo I was!

I like reading you all's posts on High Power matches.

I've owned dozens of AR's, some "match grade" with Krieger barrels, Colt, Armalite, RRA, Spikes, BCM, Sabre Defense, Bushmaster, Green Mountain and numerous others. Oddly enough, my most accurate 5.56 barrels are plain old RRA chrome moly, a 16", followed by a 20". Not a fanboy of any particular brand, just stating my findings. The RRA's I have are older guns from their early days.

OK, sorry, I misunderstood what kind of rifle you were taking about..........since this was an AR thread I just assumed you were talking about a 300 Blackout AR.

Bartlien's are normally very top shelf barrels & their pricing is top shelf too.

You should have just sent it back as I'd be surprised if they wouldn't have addressed the situation.

MM

Talked to my gunsmith buddy this afternoon about this. Bartelin is going through something or another, as they are dealing with some negative feedback. My gunsmith buddy and a fellow gunsmith have been in conversation with them about some issues and the folks at Bartelin are hanging up on them it’s gotten so bad.

BCA is "ok" for some raw parts, like a barrel for example, but there is no way in hell you could convince me to buy anything "complete" from them, even if it's just an upper. Rather buy Palmetto State if I'm looking towards that price range.

LOL….a barrel is the LAST part I’d buy from them. I’m trying to think if I’ve even seen one that had a chamber/throat cut to spec, much less shoot accurately.

I’m not sure but I think I have my answer. 🤣

Way too many red flags raised with them. Exactly why I asked you guys…..I had never heard of them.

My 6.5 Grendel SS barrel does quite well. These type groups are fairly routine.

I'd only buy one for a "close enough" lmao, definitely not for anything other than trash dumping at the range.

I’m replacing a BCA Grendel barrel right now that might group within 3-4” @100. Realistically, it starts stringing them all horizontal. As everything else checks out, and it’s across all ammo tried, it’s an indicator of another jacked up throat/neck chamber cut.

Might be 4 years ago, but unless the company has changed hands (I don't know one way or the other) that's kinda indicative of business practices.

I don't know too many illegals (even legals under 30) who can read mic's & calipers & prints, much less tell if what's coming off a machine is good or bad.

And that comes from direct experience in a precision industry not gun related, with who we can hire today.

YMMV

MM

Irons or scope? If the barrel index pin is missing or the slot is loose, iron sight guns will do that.

Scoped. Everything else is as it should be. If it’s an index pin, I’ll see it when I take it down…..but I’ve seen this several times, to varying degrees with their barrels.

Well, in fairness, the upper that Anthony bought was a few months before that.

And the raid still happened.

After seeing them screw up the barrel, and then not even being capable of putting the right caliber bolt in it, I wouldn't buy anything from them.

Anyone as incompetent as what I saw, should not remain in business. If you think I could recommend them with a straight face, think again.

I must be very lucky! I have 224 Valkyrie, 6.5 GRENDEL, 350 LEGEND, 223 Wylde, 7.62 X 39, 300 Blackout and several 5.56 barrels from BCA and all shoot very well. The 223 Wylde took some breaking in, but it shoots better every time I shoot it and thoroughly clean the barrel. I thought the 5.56 barrels were defective after I assembled rifles and they wouldn't chamber and fire any ammunition. Called BCA and they asked for the barrels and bolts I was using, which were Aero "Precision". Got a call a week later and the tech said the Aero Precision bolts were not machined correctly. The hole for the ejector was not machined deep enough. When returning my barrels and bolts, he sent me two new BCA bolts and the rifles functioned perfectly with them. I'd call that pretty good customer service. I was able to make the Aero Precision bolts function by shortening the ejector springs one coil. Oh, I shoot the Grendel and Valkyrie in our local 300 yard F-Class matches. Both shoot my match handloads into 1/2" for five shots.

Interesting. We own 4 bear creek uppers. One was 22LR that had issues from the get go. That I tried to fix and failed. They sent a brand new one that works perfectly now. Customer service.

The other 3 we own are 2 in 223 and one in 6.5 Grendel. I"ve also sighted in about 3 others in 6.5 Grendel so far. All have functioned fine. All have shot 1 inch group for 5 shots at 100 while in the zero phase. Or better. Couple took my reloads to do it with but I didn't tweak the loads, just whatever I have loaded for our Grendel.

I have not played with bear creek until the last few years though FWIW.

My goal now is to buy an on sale upper at about 200 bucks or so every sale they put on. So far no flies on that for general beat around guns and so far as noted they have been holding to MOA for our uses basically. One is probably more like an honest 1.2 or so MOA gun but its plenty good for pigs and coyotes out to 300 around the house which is about as far as we typically shoot at them if so inclined.

For you and others. If you have accuracy issues with any barrels please send em back. Almost all makers know there can be issues. Those can't be helped sometimes and have no clue until its on the gun. I don't know of any that won't back em up. Well there was maybe one years ago but I can't recall the name and don't want to use the wrong name.

I"ve had a bad Kreiger before so you just never know. But they have all stood behind the product in various ways.

I'd consider an Anderson long before I'd consider a Bear Creek. That's saying something.

Thanks Tyrone. I know you are a shooter. When those guys come to my club, I admire their rifles. They are very spendy. They do shoot well too. Those guys are used to shooting them at 600+ yards too. Mainly at Douglas Ridge in Estecada Oregon. You've probably never heard of that place. I feel bad about bad mouthing them because they are good shooters. They are just used to their clubs rules and NRA sanctioned events. I'll rattle their cages though and you know that is all part of the game. Get in their head kind of thing. I'm used to that from when I shot for money, at different trap clubs in Oregon. Half of it is a head game. Some of these guys here that don't compete, don't know that. I don't know what the OP is going to decide, but I'm wondering how many guys have experience with the Aero Precision uppers?


Like I said earlier, one of my buddies uses a 308 Aero precision with ballistic advantage barrel and that damn thing shoots great. Even with irons. He's a retired Airborne Ranger and knows how to shoot. He keeps me on my toes. Anyone else here use one??? That and the Windham are probably the one's I'd suggest. On another note, I had a really nice pre ban Bushy in my hands today. My buddy uses one of those and it shoots very well. Would it be worth looking for an older Colt or Bushmaster??? Or are some of the newer manufactures just as good, or better? Or what about the new Colts???

I thought about looking for an older HBAR upper from Colt. Sky high when they can be found.

My results yesterday with my M-16 upper. One hundred yard groups: Seemed like more vertical spreading than horizontal for what it’s worth.

Could easily be bench technique, setup.

I have been known to have excessive operator headspace occasionally

ARs aren't the easiest guns to shoot off a benchrest. The sloping stock makes them want to porpoise which string the shots vertically. A dedicated bench gun has a straight bottomed buttstock so the gun recoils straight back.

Makes sense. What do folks do it this case with respect to benchrest technique?

Accept that they are general purpose field guns and shoot them from field positions.

I don't know, I don't worry about benchresting them too much. If I want to test them, I usually go down prone, slung up with a bag under my support arm.

I'm sure BSA1917 will drop a few hints if you absolutely gotta BR them.

The only BCA item I have is a threaded Glock barrel and and it seems to shoot more accurately with that barrel over a factory Glock barrel.

Godogs57, I think your groups look pretty good. Especially the 10 shot group shown with Varget. I wouldn't kick that one out of bed. Tyrone has shot the AR platform a lot more than I have. He has some very good suggestions. rost can also help. I on the otherhand shoot weak side when I use irons. My right eye is better. When shooting off the right side, I think I focus more than I do when shooting lefty.

What kind of a rest do you use? I'm assuming rear bag too? I found a good front rest is much easier to use than a bag. That is when the rifle is not equipped with a good bi-pod. The vertical dispersion would seem more like a rear bag issue. Like Tyrone said about the shape of the butt stock, not lending itself well for shooting off a bench. They are also harder to master than a good ol bolt action, that many of us are so used to. You could always buy a new upper and see if anything changes, but be warned if you buy the wrong one, it could get worse.. Think more quality, especially when it comes to the barrel and you'll be doing yourself a favor. If you buy a new upper, let us know how it compares.

As for PSA, which seems like a lot of these guy's suggest, one of my buddies texted me early this morning. Like 5:30 AM!!! He has been working on building a couple AR10's. He said he pulled out the borescope and both PSA barrels looked like dog schidt. Something about the machinging being horrible and an issue with one side of the lands in a couple areas. if it were me, I'd be trying the BA barrel that comes in the upper I posted a pic of yesterday. That one is built by Aero Precision and has a removable carry handle. That way you can assess the upper with a scope too, and see how those groups compare to your iron sight groups. If there is a huge fluctuation, that tells you you're doing something wrong. Remember to nose up to that charging handle and do it consistently every time.. Tyrone is right, this is a battle rifle, but it can be shot from the bench or prone with great success. Stay in the rifle, keep everything consistent and stay focused mentally. Everything you have learned about marksmanship applies to the AR two fold!!

Shooting a Caldwell Rock Competition front rest with a Bald Eagle bunny bag @ rear. I’ll be the first to criticize my technique if necessary and did notice it was hard to be consistent on that rear bag with the sling swivel as big and prominent as it is.

looks like a 11/2 gun way better then my BC experience.

I can see that one slipping quite a bit. Probably too hard. I'd find a good leather rear bag, where it allows the stock to nestle into it. This will reduce slipping, which may be causing some of the vertical stringing. These 2 bags are an example of what I use. They are not high dollar, nor big name bunny ear bags either. Just something that works well.




In this last picture, you can see the rifle on the far left the bag was not tall enough. That is my buddies rifle. He was struggling to shoot it well. He asked if I could shoot it to see what was going on. I shot it and it shot 2" 10 shot groups. That is a pre ban National match HBAR Bushmaster. It's a great rifle. My Colt outshoots it though and it does not have the HBAR. My buddy was struggling to even get 3-4" groups with his rifle. He'll say it's a 1 1/2 moa rifle though, if you ask him. Another thing to note in this picture, is he could have brought the front rest down to accommodate the height difference. He didn't want to do that. For some reason he, and many others like their rifles a foot off the bench. I'm different, I like to get comfortable when shooting off the bench. It's all technique and what you are used to, but if you are not willing to make changes, you may never end up shooting the platform well. Such as my buddy, he's hard headed.

Then again I'm saying they have been much better than I read about... and you know if I"m saying it, well it has to have merit.. Depending use...

Front rest as close to mag well as possible. Aim and fire. Nothing fancy. Works fine to find out potential.

I do have a special upper to put match barrels on that is wide and slick and floated, to test 600 yard plus ammo and barrel before putting on a service rifle. There I take a bit more time on the rest part but nothing fancy.