Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Berger Hunting vs Target

Where did Coyote10 run off to?

We were fixing to make a bet.

This is correct. The “hp” on an otm (ie berger) is there only as a result of forming the bullet. They are often pinched closed There is no means to initiate expansion on this type of bullet (ie a wide hp or soft lead nose). They penetrate a short distance in the much denser tissue and start yawing. The yaw increases surface area and keeps increasing and feeding back on itself. What generally happens is the tip will bend and cause the bullet to rupture or tumble if jacket is too strong. The more stable a bullet is before entering tissue the further it may penetrate before coming apart though it is still generally few extra inches (ie not feet). This type of behaviour is different than we are used to with hunting bullets that are designed to expand but very well documented and understood in wound ballistics literature as military bullets behave this way

This is why bergers penetrate a few inches then fragment. A thicker jacket may not fragment as easily though as
Bullet tumbles over it will still do damage. An increase in area does not matter if it comes from an wider front or side profile of bullet though one will generally penetrate more straight than other:)

Lou

For the record I use and like berger hunting bullets. They are very effective and work as described. I have never used the target variety

Lou

here is the deal, I say this from experience, berger hunting bullets are designed to penetrate 2" then violently expand. if you have a fast twist cut rifled barrel, the deeper, sharper cut rifling will sometimes compromise the jackets causing the bullet to not make it inside the animal before it expands causing a splash wound than ends with a crippled animal. I experienced this with a 6.5 gibbs fitted with aa kreiger cut rifled 8 twist barrel running a 140 at 3280 fps. lost a good buck, shot another that was recovered, and saw the results. called berger and was advised of the problem,, switched to the match bullets and now get the exact same results that folks get from button rifled barrels with hunting bullets. target shooters do not need expansion so they make the match bullet jackets thicker.

The 215 hybrid target 308 at around 2800 mv is a dragon slayer. A very deadly bullet from coyotes to bull elk.

Bb

Three mule deer with the 25-06 pushing the hunting version of the 115 grain VLD at about 3190 fps: 175, 230 and 400 yards - all instant drops. That was years ago when Berger first started promoting the VLD as a hunting bullet. They are mighty rough on coyote pelts too.

Then in 2021 I used the 180 grain Berger "Elite Hunter" from my 30-06 to drop a fat 3x3 muley buck at about 350 yards.

Have to say that I'm impressed with the accuracy & lethality of the Berger hunting bullets.

Regards, Guy

target for us. Hunting is too frangible for our tastes. Target ones kill just fine.

As to dropping on the spot, thats all shot placement. I can't recall a Berger bullet dropping a deer for us, but we lung shoot and let em run.

Rate of fire in competition? That explains the jacket failures at 200 slow fire in some Berger bullets before they adjusted. Ya know. 22 shots in 22 minutes... thats pretty high rate of fire and I"m sure is what caused the failures.... or the fact that other bergers we used were used in actual NTIT and never came apart.. 50 second target exposure drop as many rounds as you want.....

When working up loads for my new at the time 26 Nosler, I noted their 140 VLDH load data topped out at 3,200 max.

I called Berger, talked to a tech. Told him I could push those 140’s faster than their max. He told me they didn’t recommend VLD Hunting bullets pushed beyond 3,200 fps, suggested I use their Target VLD’s.

I went with tougher bullets.

DF

Jeff,
We had a discussion (via PMs if I recall) about this a while back. It turned out the Bergers you were using in your .308 for hunting WERE the same model Berger re-named the Hunting VLDs.

Just looking for clarification.

Best,
John

That's an option.

As the 140gr VLD is a legit 0 to 1000yd elk killer one wonders what could be better?

I'm settled in using the 140gr VLDH in my .260 and 6.5-.284. But mostly for antelope, deer, and cow elk. They work great for me.

For bull elk I take my .300 WM with 230gr Berger OTMs. They are hammers.

cut riifled barrrels are hard on the thin jackets of the hunting bullets, they expand prematurely especialy in a fast twist. I get the exact same terminal performance from the match bullets in an 8 twist kreiger as most folks get using button rifled barrels with the hunting bullets. I run them at 3200 in a 6.5 gibbs.
and they shoot like this, 3 shoots at a lazered 752 yards.

The 230’s work well at 840 yards on antelope too

Wow!

John,

The 140 6.5 has probably been my favorite Berger, even when they were called "Berger Match Grade" before the name-change to "Hunting." Have used other Berger Hunting VLDs from 115 grains on up, but the 140 6.5 has worked very well in cartridges from the 6.5 CM to .264 Winchester.

The 140 vldh is what I started with when I built my first 6.5 Creedmoor over a dozen years ago. I found an awesome load after just a few charge adjustments of H4350 and then took it out later that week and dropped a 4x4 buck at about 220 with a behind the shoulder shot. It dropped incredibly quick and there was a part that exited. I've just stayed with that ever since.

My favorite Barnes for hunting are the 215g 308 hybrid target and the 6.5 140g vldh along with the .243 105g vldh. So I with use either hunting or target to hunt.

Bb

I have seen well north of 100 head of big game killed with 180 Bergers started at 3100-3200 fps, coues deer muley bucks, bears, bull elk... very good performance
Quite a few more from 7 WSM at 3050ish.

A 100 yard shot on a coues is pretty rough. Seen DRT on bears and mule deer at 1000-1100 yards.
Very good combo.
These are both Orange box and hybrids.

John,

It's a great choice for most all hunting.

I tend to use the 130gr Hybrid/VLD in the Creedmoor more these days to flatten the mid range in 18 inch barrels.

Very good terminal performance with that bullet at Creedmoor speeds and out to 600yds+.

I can honestly say I have shot hundreds of the 300 grain .338 Elite Hunter bullets anywhere from 3150fps to 3250fps and haven't had any blowup. I've been shooting anywhere from 800 yards to 1500 yards with no problems.
One shot 1035 yards PA
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