Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Case forming die problems. Need help. (pics show problems)

I recently purchased this case forming die from RCBS and I'm not sure I trust it. I thought I'd run this by the crew for opinions.

OK, RCBS claims you can reform (neck up) .30-06 brass to use in a 8X64S Brenneke chamber by simply running the brass through their case forming die and then full length resizing it in a 8X64S reloading die. I did but the shoulder is in the wrong place. The shoulder on the re-formed .30-06 brass is 0.076 lower than on a factory Bertrem 8X64S case.

Now, what make it possible is the shoulder DIA. is wider on the reformed .30-06 cases but not by a huge amount. I'm guessing they assume the case will headspace the for the 1st firing on the side of the case wall. This is all foreign to me though. I'm not saying it wouldn't work but it just seems a little scary to me.

What do you guy's think?

Here is what RCBS say's about it. These are the only instructions provided.


Here is what it looks like after the reizing process. The case on the left is the re-formed .30-06 case. The RED LINES indicate where the the original 8X64 case achieves the the same DIA as the re-formed case does at the shoulder.



I smoked one of the new cases and chambered it. You can see where does make contact on most of the area on the sides below the shoulder but you can't feel any resistance closing the bolt. It just looks like a headspace problem to me. ANY COMMENTS OR SUGGESTIONS ARE WELCOME.

Terry

Mr. TC1;
Good morning to you sir.

Unless I am missing something obvious in your excellent photo, the shoulder does not appear to be where it needs to be to make me comfortable that it will headspace properly. I could be and likely am incorrect. It might be fine as is, but I like to be sure in these matters.

One method that I have used a few times, both for reforming cases and to circumvent the over-stretching on rimmed cases with generous chambers such as are found on many .303 Br SMLE for instance, is the following.

I open the case mouth up a couple of calibers larger, in your case I’d think to at least .33 and likely to .35. Then I size the case down to the desired size, checking it frequently in the chamber of the rifle. What I am wanting is a snug fit, so I am able to just close the bolt with some effort. Ideally we have created a small shoulder which the case will be able to effectively headspace on.

I will then load it with a starting type load, as the case capacity is reduced as yet. Upon firing, it should blow the case into the desired shape, albeit as noted in the RCBS comments, sometimes a bit short in the neck.

This method has worked in .30-30, .303 and making .308 Norma brass using 7mm RM brass. It enables the case to be supported on the shoulder and prevents the over-stretching that shortens case life if one uses the belt or rim in the cartridges I mentioned.

In any case, good luck with your cases.

Regards,
Dwayne

Your consternation is understandable. It may be that after expansion of the original case there is supposed to be a slight "shoulder" at the base of the neck that would aid in the headspacing. Can't tell from the photos as that relatively slight "shoulder" could only be a few thousandths. You might try backing out your Benneke sizer about a half turn and chambering a case to see if you get any resistance in chambering. If not, I'd contact RCBS. With no resistance to chambering, the only other way to get a functional case would be to load and seat with bullets seated so they contact the lands. Or, as the previous poster states, expand the neck out to 338. That would leave you with a "shoulder" of about .015".

Yes, I asked this question another forum and somebody else suggested the same thing.

In this photo I ran the .30-06 case up a .338-06 FL die first instead of that goofy case forming die and then ran it up a 8X64S die. Now it has enough tension on the mouth to hold the bullet but now the neck has a very tight fit in the chamber creating a false shoulder a little like an Ackley cartridge.

Below is a case I smoked that shows the improvment.


I also emailed RCBS and told them they were going to get someone hurt with that product!

Thanks for the help!

Terry

Excellent photo's and sketch Terry. You might try .35 Whelan brass and then the larger neck may form a temporary shoulder.

Another thought is perhaps the form die is to be used with fired 30-06 cases?

If the Whelan brass does not work then try .280 Remington cases as the shoulder on that one is longer than the 06's.

All good idea's. After some web searching and comparing case drawings I also found 7X64 brass is pretty easy to find and almost identical to the 8X64S.

Terry

If you need any 7x64 brass,drop me a PM and I can fix you up.I have plenty...

Yes, a little excess in the sizing up, and then bringing it down with your normal sizing die is liketly the best ticket to approximate chamber dimensions without firing a cartridge. Otherwise, sizing up, annealing, and light-load fire forming will get you where you want to go too.

If it were me, I'd just buy the proper brass. My time is too valuable to spend working up a product that still might have length issues.

The length wasn't the problem, it's the shoulder. My main gripe is that RCBS say's thier product will work when it cleary won't.
I would whole heartedly agree with you about the the time and money issue in most cases, but 8X64S Brenneke brass is going for $2.50 apiece! I think full length resizing 7X64 brass is going to be a very easy fix though. Kind of like making .338-06 cases out of .30-06 brass.

Terry

TCI: If one is sizing down, then he can expect dimensions to come into line in a single pass through his die. When sizing up, however, especially with shoulder movements, one is going to have to blow the shoulder out/up at some time or another. Remember all the Ackley talk here. A sizing die can not suck brass out to fill a void. The physics just aren't there. I think one is a little too optimistic if he is expecting to accomplish all in a single handling. I see no reason at all to be upset with a die maker. When they are fire formed, the necks may indeed recede a bit. 1Minute

Seat your bullet out to touch the lands with a starting load for the .280 Rem, and fireform you case to the chamber..The reforming dies have to work in all chambers so it may be a tad too small...Also it appears that your case is not fully resized.

You might also try after case forming with your new die to chamber the case until you get a crush fit and then shoot it and that will also fireform you case..You can also fireform the case with a small charge of Hercules pistol powder, a filler and a wax top if you don't want to waste a bullet.

At any rate your not in as much trouble as you percieve.

BTW 7x64 Rem brass is available and its very cheap by brass standards, about the same as 06 or .270..

Ray, the case is fully resized. The one on the right is a Bertrem factory case, those are just anneling marks.

1minute, I do understand exactly what you're saying, but read the directions supplied with the die, that's what I'm talking about. Yes, I can make it work, just not the way RCBS say's I can.

Thanks for all the help!

Terry

You have a PM,I found the brass...This will work fine,I've done it before,fireform to your chamber and load up...

You have a bag in the mail of Remington 7x64.That should give you a good start.Good luck...