Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Copper bullets.

Those expand in elk flesh too.

Brad,
I’ve had, and witnessed, the original X Bullets fail to expand (or at least appear to) but plastic tipped copper bullets have all appeared to open up, penetrate, and track as reliably as Partitions.

Is that what you are referring to or did you have a different kind of failure?

I have witnessed and experienced failures to penetrate and/or breakup with c&c bullets, included bonded bullets, that are favorites here on the ‘fire.

The thing with monos is that they seem not to fragment to the level that traditional c&c or partition type bullets do thereby limiting their killing power to the intact portion of bullet itself. That can become a variable in and of itself should the actual bullet expand less or more depending on resistance provided by the target. Traditional bullets can’t help but lose weight & enhance killing power by creating many micro-wound channels & almost creating the ability to be more predictable given a certain shot placement in expectation of this occurrence.

Penetration is another conversation and this is what we are all currently told matters most…until it’s doesn’t. How much penetration, given each game animal, do we actually need? For example: 20”+ penetration on a whitetail seems unnecessary.

I’ve killed probably 30 bucks with a 6mm 85gr BTSP & even more with a 130gr Speer SP that never moved out of their hoof prints. I’ve probably only shot 15-20 animals with a mono but none of them responded like I described above - often running off a bit but mostly all feature an exit. Most of the time an animal running off becomes its own problem both for follow up shots and/or retrieval.

I accept & agree that monos have their place - we should each choose a bullet that gets suits the shot we expect to take at the range we expect to take the shot at to obtain the cleanest possible, most humane kill.

*Scientifically I fully understand that my experience is mathematically unimportant and the scale of my experience is painfully small - BUT - if I need a Mono I will use it. If I need a c&c I will use it. No bullet can possibly cover all variables despite marketing hype claiming otherwise.

Just my .02 & fully accept my bias.

alpinecrick;
Good afternoon to you sir, I hope you're getting weather you need on the West Slope and you're well.

Thanks very much for the kind words - and to the others who were gracious to me as well, I do appreciate it and will do my best to deserve them in future posts.

Regarding Nosler E-Tips, a friend and hunting/shooting partner uses them in a couple rifles, one a .308 in which he's running the 150gr and he's happy with them.

Honestly over the past several years up here component supply has been variable at best to the point where we'll use what we can get.

That's very much one reason we're still running TSX in a couple rifles instead of TTSX, because we found they worked and I bought what I hoped was at least a decade or two worth of them. Now to be sure we just use them for hunting and confirming zero, then fool with bullets we are able to find for other practice.

There's many roads to Mecca and all that for sure alpinecrick and this just happens to be the one we've ended up taking is all.

Thanks again for the kind words and all the best in the upcoming week.

Dwayne

So do you think maybe we blame some of the older iterations of mono’s and continue holding the grudge on todays well made bullets. I don’t have near the amount of kills as some and I do think in deer monos aren’t needed but man the ones that have been shot seemed fine. There are a few that I think way further than the should’ve gone but they’re still dead at the end of the trail.

I think arguing about what another guy chooses is akin to the my 30-06 kills better than a 270…. The sheer numbers of animals and combos to prove a darned thing would take 100 of us hunting non stop to prove anything, even if that was enough not to mention the sheer crazy amount of combinations.

Dwayne’s post about RPMs seeming to help with them is music to my ears and kinda what I’ve thought to myself for awhile.

Just my thought though.

I’m looking forward to hearing how CRS’s 1-8 twisted 270 works for him with TTSXs. I’m kinda betting it’ll be a massive blender.

#heretic

beretzs;
Good afternoon my cyber friend, I hope the day in your part of the world is treating you acceptably and you're all well.

For sure and certain I've been a proponent of projectile RPM playing a role in how the bullet opens and then the resulting tissue damage for a fairly long time now.

Here is a link to the RPM calculator that I've used to come up with some rough numbers.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-stability/

About 10 years back we were seeing that the tissue damage resulting from our daughter's 6.5 Swede using 130gr TSX was equal or greater than the damage from the .270 which was also shooting 130gr TTSX or GMX bullets out of, despite the fact that the .270 started them out nearly 250fps faster.

Here's a thread from that timeframe.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt.../tissue-damage-270-vs-6-5x55#Post9248055

Regarding CRS's 1:8 twist .270, I recall my late cyber friend BobinNH made a point of telling me his .270's were running 1:9 barrels and he was looking at trying faster twists in the future. If he did or not before he passed, I'm not positive.

For sure some will be frustrated by others such as myself who admittedly enjoy minutia and diving down rabbit holes. Some will say "killing a deer isn't that complicated" and that's certainly true too.

That said, folks wired in the way I appear to have been from the factory like to know the "why" when they see something, though I'm the first to admit it's not been an inexpensive way to live sometimes, nor has it always led me to firm conclusions. Often more questions usually...

All the best to you all.

Dwayne

Bob / RinB was the fellas that got me started on what 10-15 years ago was considered crazy amounts of twist.

Today it’s a bit more common.

RPMs don’t hurt bullet performance and to my eyes they make great bullets work even better.

Hope you’re having a helluva good evening.

I had the original X, Failsafe and a TTSX (yes, tipped) fail to open. Friends mostly experienced failures with the TSX. So yeah, failures with mono's 1.0 and 2.0 were understandable, but a TTSX failing to open is another thing. Still, I think despite the occasional failure of mono 3.0's to open, they're still a better choice than lead/copper bullets for all the reason's you and Ben stated.

Hahaha. Not trying to be but still might be 👍🏼😜

I have to fully admit that the health benefits sure support Monos - I just don’t personally have 100% confidence in them. I’ll
Attribute this attitude to me not having enough experience with Monos.

Long way of saying that I’m open minded

Me too!
I have a rpm theory, but not enough in field experience to ponder here yet. Lest I get crucified by those that "know".

The fast twist is going to get a 129 LRX load worked up in addition to the heavies.

The LRX has a sleeker ogive than the TTSX and the current TSX.
The first TSX's had a similar ogive.

I want in on the blender effect!

I've taken deer 🦌 and Antelope that have a smallish exit in the hide and when I opened them up the vitals looked like a BLENDER went through them

I have a 10 twist 35 Whelen and an 8 twist 300 RUM

I'd never own a 308 with less than a 10 twist

Your results and mine differ, but I've never shot anything with a X bullet. The Barnes 168gr ttsx and 175gr lrx destroy the internal organs and don't really destroy the shoulder bones and there's very little blood shot meat. We were kind of thinking that the bullet created a vacuum or something because of the blood splatter coming out of the exit wound.

Just picked up 3 boxes of 338cal TTSX Barnes at the gas station today

BWalker,

You have stated this before in other threads, but the latest research indicates that yes, blood-testing is very helpful, despite blood leaving the blood system within 30 days after exposure.

This has been determined by the development of an effective (and quick) way to measure lead-level in bones--and this shows a strong correlation with blood levels IF they're checked reasonably frequently.

Also, the studies I've mentioned in my articles have mentioned large samples between large populations of humans, especially the European study that compared hunters versus non-hunters. Game studies have also shown interesting results, especially from animals during hunting seasons.

But my main point is that no, blood-test for lead levels are not "about worthless for determining you bodies lead load," whether in humans or other animals. Which is why so many studies, both on humans and animals, depend at least partly on them.

Additionally, my data-base of animals taken with "copper" bullets is over 200 animals, dating back to around 1990. No, they don't kill as quickly as SOME lead-cores, but the results from the past dozen years don't show nearly as much difference as earlier bullets.

Around 150 of those animals were either taken by me or Eileen. We use far more "copper" bullets these days, mostly because they kill quickly enough, without ruining as much meat, on average, as lead-cores. Over the past five years we've taken around animals up through big elk with 'em, and none has gone over 50 yards before falling.

I hear you. I don’t know that I’d ever have enough data, but I don’t really care much, but I can say with bullets that’ll hold the RPMs the insides of those animals is literally purée.

The old Bitterroot bullets just are like death on elk for me. Maybe it’s [bleep] ass luck, but if you stick to Steigers RPM guidance they are amazing.

Bob and again, Rick D seemed to believe as well.

A 175 BBC from an 8 twist over 3k is a giant killer in my book. Love the Partitions but wound channels didn’t compare.

I don’t wanna get called on the carpet as it’s less than 10 of each but that’s enough for me, I’m not a scientist and don’t care that someone doesn’t see the same. I’ll live in bliss with my 7 MASHBURN blender gun

Scotty - I need to learn more about what you are sharing. I’ll have to look into Steigers - It makes total sense about rpm. I’ll have to look back at my notes relating bullets performance & twist on the guns used.

This is a great topic to explore!

BC30cal,

I believe faster rpm increases tissue damage.

The other factor we must consider is bullet integrity. This is well proven, that faster rpm stresses a bullet more.
How this applies to lighter constructed hunting bullets and in field performance on big game is unknown to me.

The big question. At what point, if ever, will rpm's cause a hunting bullet to not perform as it should?

So using the rpm calculator you posted. A 1:8 barrel will be spinning a 3000fps 270 bullet at 270,000 rpm over the 216,000 rpm of a standard 1:10 twist.

A more drastic example would be 1:14 twist 22-250 vs a 1:8. 195,000rpm vs 342,000rpm. We have killed a bunch of deer/antelope with the 1:14. But I do not even have a load worked up with the 53gr TSX in the new 1:8 barrel.

Would there be a noticeable effect on game? Would rotational energy take away from penetration? Have never recovered a 53gr TSX out of an animal using the 1:14 twist. Would we suddenly start recovering bullets?

I do not know for certain.