Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Australia How Common Are Snakes?

I know how dangerous they are, but I wonder what the chances are of running into one in the bush. I ask because of three things.
1. One of the snakes is referred to as the Common Brown Snake. Just how "common" is it?
2. On a garden tour in Tasmania several years ago, our guide, in a normal tone of voice, briefed us "if you see a snake, head in the opposite direction and let me know". She wasn't trying to scare us, just letting us know that it could happen.
3. Before visiting Sydney, I read that they'd seen Red-Bellied Black Snakes in the Royal Botanical Gardens. When we walked it, I was amazed that they'd be living in a park in the middle of Sydney with people all around.
So my main question is, how often do you see one, and in what kind of terrain?

Not very often. When I do, it's usually alongside a creek or river. I nearly stepped on one last year while walking in the grass beside a creek ...which startled both me and it, it made a couple of lunges, I stepped back, then it slithered into the water. I think it was a brown, but things happened too fast to take note.

Generally don't see them that often, but they are there. Have seen the odd Taipan and Red Bellied Black snake while out hunting or bush walking. I've recently saw a Green Tree Snake in my garden just outside my patio, and I live in the suburbs of Brisbane for crying out loud.

The Taipans, Browns and Tiger snakes can act defensively if startled.

I used to drive past the cane field areas along the Queensland coastline for work and I'd always see a few snakes slither off the side of the road as I was driving along - not sure what type they were. The cane fields bring in all sorts of insects and rodents that the snakes feed on. I've seen them also inside electrical switchboards, cable ducts and underground cable pits around those areas, or sometimes just their shed skins. Any outside electrical work usually involves a snake catcher to catch and relocate the snakes.

Carpet Pythons are said to be fairly common too but I have never come across one - I wish I'd had one to eat the possums that were living in the garage and house roof at one stage.

Forgot to mention - Dugites are everywhere around Perth and the south west of Western Australia. I lived in Perth for a while and used to ride my bike around the river and various lakes. I used to see them all the time around the various lakes, and various man made in-ground water reservoirs. They aren't aggressive but are venomous.

I've never known one to put on airs.

It depends a lot in what part of Australia you go to. I live in the north east of NSW, and we have our share of snakes. We actually had a common Brown snake in our kitchen once. I had to kill it with a shovel because a shotgun would mess up the floor. We get regular visits from couple of Pythons, or carpet snakes that chew on the occasional bush rat. The fact is that we do have some of the most venomous snakes in the world here, but there are really very few fatalities from them. If they are not in or around the house I leave them alone. Most people who get bitten by a snake have either tried to kill them, or have stepped on them. You just watch where you put your feet in the bush and you'll be fine.

See them lots in the Bush.

I live on a small block in the city, we have had browns here and son ran over some juvenile ones with lawnmower - juvenile snakes can be deadly as have fresh venom and poor venom control so can latch on and inject heaps.

Next door neighbor killed a red-bellied Black week before last, his dog alerted him to it. Shame as I like the blacks.

At work, in the Bush I am a Geologist, I always carry a snake bite kit and sat phone.

Usually you leave them alone and they will leave you alone.

If you are stumbling around irrigation at night you are definitely going to strike some, if you are in town you probably won't see any, if you are wandering up the main street it is extremely unlikely you will see one.

Browns are as common as muck at the local tip, mostly seen on the dirt road going down the back...but they don't bother me so I don't bother them.

Seeing them whilst working in town is uncommon enough to warrant mention...grabbing one when working in the gardens is an excellent attention getter as it really helps to sharpen one's focus and raise the heart rate.


General rule of thumb is to leave them alone...unless they are in your yard in which case all bets are off and the law is ignored.

quite a few here in the rainforest , especially breeding season. Have seen two snakes on the roads here at night the last two days. We get a few night tigers(brown tree snakes) show up a month at work, usually wrapped around a rafter of the tin roof for warmth. Banana farms here place an opaque plastic bag around bunches for protection and growth. Snakes often crawl into the bags for warmth at night and when workers cut the bunches in the morning its not uncommon to have a snake drop out. They are usually drowsy and escape sluggishly into the bush- the snakes that is Snakes are protected in Australia these days, cant kill them. In the day they were dispatched by anything from grandads shovel to a 410 shotgun. Realistically you can survive about any snake encounter just by moving away from it.

When I was in primary school in the early 70s I remember that we were taught to kill snakes by breaking their back with a shovel and then chopping their head off with the shovel. I don't think there were further qualifications or concerns.

I saw a few snakes when I spent some time in the bush in Australia. As people have said, they're not a problem as long as you pay attention to where you put your hands and feet. Australia has some pretty cool snakes. I wish I'd seen more.

I see quite a few snakes while fishing through the summer. Mostly red belly blacks so we always have to be careful. I tend to be a bit casual about them but they are still Number 9 I think. The odd tiger snake and eastern brown pop up too. The eastern browns are Number 2 in the world and very aggressive. But while walking through the bush seeing a snake is quite a rare occurance. Maybe one or two in a whole year. Maybe a couple on the roads while driving. However, everyone I know carries one or two bandages in their fishing or hunting bags. It's just standard practice. As more and more people become urbanised, the fear of snakes is increasing. I work with people who won't go fishing because of the fear of snakes. The less they know the more they fear. But snakes are about and we always look for them when walking along a river bank.

This might be worth a watch.

I trod on the tail of a King Brown about 50 cm from it's tail. I was out west on my own hunting pigs and was playing with my GPS and felt something squishy under my foot. I kinda new what it was before I looked. There under my foot was a King Brown a bit smaller than the one in the vid. Luckily he was stretched out and his head was a metre from my foot. Apparently, they are not as aggressive as an eastern brown. I gently lifted my foot and it stayed there for 30 seconds, or so it felt, and when it was calm it slowly slid off. It was only after that I realised how lucky I was. I was wearing shorts, I was two kilometres from the car, my snake bandages were in my pack (which was in the car), I was five kilometres from the farm house and 100km from the nearest hospital. Lucky it wasn't an eastern brown as they are angry buggers and I reckon I would have been bitten.

What is a "snake bandage?"

Compression bandage used for reducing transmission of venom in the body.

The US doesnt follow this as rigidly since they dont have as many deadly snakes and for several species compression is not advised as it can cause tissue destruction from the venom in that area.

Australia has more deadly snakes which also may not be identifiable by victims. As such the first aid priority is assume its deadly, apply compression and accept the chance of tissue destruction.

I don’t like spiders and snakes, that ain’t what it takes to love me!! Coo, coo, coochoo!!

I once asked an Aussie friend how many of the Australian snakes were venomous,

"ALL OF THEM!"

She might have been a little phobic....

Okay, I will throw you a bone for that one 5sdad.

Yes, and no. Enough of them are venomous that you don't take chances. It's not like here in Michigan where there is only one venomous snake and it's relatively rare.

Appreciated.

Yep,

The snakes in my area are all venomous. They are the eastern brown, red belly black, tiger, copperhead and death adder. There are non venomous pythons and various tree snakes but not in my local area. So we treat them all with respect. Nothing to be frightened of, just be careful and keep an eye out for them.

At least we don't have grizzly bears and have to carry a side arm when fishing. Or a bear stopping cartridge.

Thats the main difference UPhiker, Australia has 170 species of snake versus Americas 50 or so. 100 of Australias snakes are venomous.

I just wanted to thank everyone for their thoughtful responses without any exaggerations.

Thank you for the explanation.

In the US nearly all venomous snakes are pit vipers. The venom of most pit vipers destroys tissue, so there are more issues with applying a compression bandage. In Australia, the majority of snakes are Elapids (cobra family). Many Australian Elapids are small and are not usually dangerous, but the larger species include some of the most dangerous snakes anywhere. The venom of Australian Elapids often contains significant neurotoxic elements and is generally more toxic than the venom of pit vipers. Because of this, slowing down the absorption of venom until antivenin can be administered is critical.

Interesting, for what it's worth:



80 million years ago venom became a trait from natural selection.

I live in the center of British Columbia so there’s Blackbears everywhere and a high population of grizzlies, but I would still be more comfortable backpacking and sleeping in a small tent here than with the snakes and spiders in Australia. Whether that’s rational or not I’m not sure.
When I as 20 I spent 10 months in eastern Australia bumming around and working. I remember one time there was a great big Goanna digging around in a fire pit in the yard of a place I was staying. We get blackbears here that do the same thing. I was amazed at how big all the different types of common spiders were there. I really enjoyed all the small lizards that were everywhere though.
I guess it’s true that I fear what I’m not used to ha ha.

I think that's the thing - the percieved risk based on limited experience. I would have the opposite fears to what you have ie I've camped in tents here without too much extra concern about spiders and snakes but would be nervous to do similar over where you are due to the bears. Snakes and spiders here won't break into occupied tents and rip the occupants to shreds.

Goannas are fairly bold here. Food must be kept in a sealed container of sorts, usually an "esky". We once had a carton of eggs in a zipped up tent while we went out on our hunt. When we got back we found a goanna inside the tent eating the eggs. It had been able to force the zip open enough for it to get inside the tent. They'll scavenge the camp site also while we are in our tents. They will run away when approached but will stay in the area, usually up in a tree.

I remember being a little freaked out by the big Goanna. I wasn’t sure if I should attempt to chase it off or not.
On the flip side I chased one of the biggest Blackbear I’ve ever seen out of my yard this summer. In reality he wasn’t so much leaving out of fear of me, more just moving along in his search and avoiding me. That was plain to see in his body language. He barely picked up his pace so definitely made me a little less confident with him ha ha.

The feeling once you are used to the Australian bush is its a pretty safe place. All the toxic creatures are either rarely seen or easily evaded. Nothing here to prey on you on land like the Americas and Africa. We dont have the parasites or diseases of Africa nor rabies like America does. As long as you dont go swimming with crocs, the worst thing you might run into is a wild boar and they usually startle and head the other way. Biggest risk for people especially tourists is dehydration or getting lost and admittedly that does happen a bit

The biggest risk in Australia for anyone is the out of control Marxist Gov't.

Somebody always has to ruin a polite, informative conversation. Go back up to the Campfire forum.

That's scary, I hope you were armed.

If I ever found myself camping out over there I think I would have guard snakes to keep the bears away - maybe a taipan at each boundary corner.

No not armed. It’s pretty common here for bears to cruise through neighborhoods at night searching through garbage cans that have been left out. Especially in the spring when they’re fresh out of hibernation, and in late summer. He was just making his way through my yard but my garbage cans were in my garage. This big guy was pretty comfortable with his lifestyle and not too bothered by me rushing him along. He just moved on to the next house and continued his routine.
We regularly get Mule Deer and Moose in the neighborhood as well.

Harnessing the power of snakes for security is a great idea. I know I wouldn’t go near lol.

We were going to give that a whirl but couldn't get any more of them in to Canberra.

Are those the ones sucking the life blood out of the country?

Snakes...leeches...pollies come in both shades.

From my readings, I always thought that the coastal taipan was the most feared snake in Australia, but from this thread it sounds like the eastern brown may be the most dangerous.

Trowsa Snake is about the worst from what I hear

I'd feel much more safe where I'm at in Idaho or western Montana than in Aussy territory. Those spiders and snakes down under have the worst venom and that's horrific in my mind.

Last year I was riding my motorbike and had an huge mountain lion jump out in front of me and it jumped away in the steep brush scared and surprised. Big cat and it could've nailed me easy but they're are chased with hounds here and know people are dangerous to them. A much better encounter than one with a croc, snake/lizard, or Sydney funnelweb.

One thing that's probably a bigger killer here in N. America is hypothermia. They say that's the big danger for folks or what you hear about most

I have seen more snakes this year than probably the last 15 combined

I believe gluttony is, no?

Look and you shall see , wander and you will no doubt stumble into one , there everywhere but mind there own business, six sightings at work this year , there going to pull a whole rock bed apart cause they’ve seen the same small brown snake there three times over the last 3months it’s near the office so there freaking out , snake catcher hasn’t had any luck with that one , had a few moments over the years but you have to be pretty unlucky or stupid to get bit , some can be psycho but it’s not the rule

The key thing to remember about Australian snakes is that their fangs are actually very small.

When compared with the Gaboon Viper at 2in long fangs, or typical rattlesnakes at a little under that, the Eastern Brown is 1/8in.

They don't need large fangs as the venom is so toxic and their prey is relatively small, frogs, lizards, rats and mice. Even being suspected of receiving a bite (often looks like a scratch), medical treatment is strongly recommended. Often, people don't know until the paralysis and excessive bleeding comes in, and then they die. Time between bite and death is 20 to 50 minutes without treatment (interim treatment greatly prolongs life). Most Australian snakes short fang/high potency venom inject into the Lymphatic system so pressure bandages to slow lymphatic flow are the effective interim treatment until effective treatment with an antivenene. No antivenene = certain death within hours.

Bitten by a Viper like a Rattler or Gaboon, and you know about it quickly from pain and swelling, although luckily interim treatment is easy with bandage and blood flow control means you are unlikely to die before you can get effective treatment with an antivenene, antibiotics, etc. Without treatment tissue damage can be very bad as the venom is injected into the blood layer, and death may take 2 to 3 days.

I was watching a show last week about a guy that was bitten by a rattler and to my complete surprise I learned something new.

DId you know that the WORST THING you can do when bitten by a venomous snake is to control your blood flow?

A pressure bandage to restrict lymphatic flow
is also going to restrict blood flow but not
necessarily to problematic level.


Can you be more anatomically specific
as to what you mean by 'blood layer'?

Hi Starman,

The show I watched with the guy being Bit on the foot, his girlfriend put a tourniquet above his calf just below his knee, which is what I would have done!

A doctor was on the show she said that if you isolate the venom in one area then you experience more problems in a smaller area rather then let the venom travel and disperse through your body.

The girlfriend did the sucking thing on his wound, the doctor also said that was a wives tale and it has no effect. She went on to say that you want to sit still and wait for help if you can and not get your heart rate up.

Disclaimer, I no nothing about snake bites, I would have asked my girlfriend to start sucking immediately and I would have put on a tourniquet immediately.

The show is called "Something Bit Me?

Pressure bandage, keep calm, keep movement to minimum while getting medical attention ASAP.

Realistically in all seriousness you are 1 million times more likely to get killed 4x4ing to the spot or cutting a tree off the track so don’t even worry about them , the closest I’ve seen to danger was my wife and I were walking back from the beach along the Darby river in the evening along a walking track, lots of frogs , anyway it was twilight I had my surf rod and rod holder in my hand , my wife stood fair in the middle of a 4 1/2 foot Tiger snake , you definitely don’t want to get bit by one of them , lucky I was watching and as it turned round to bite as it had no other choice , I yelled at the wife and blocked the strike with the rod holder , she immediately got off it and it scurried off as quick as it came , that snake probably would’ve died she put her entire weight on it, but it still just wanted to escape

Here’s a Tiger my wife helped get out of her hippy friends mums house 2weeks ago ,doesn’t put mouse bait out cause she doesn’t want to hurt the mice , really old house in the country holes in the floor boards found it in the pantry had at least five mice in it you could see the bumps , this was one angry snake and knew it was game time when confronted

KillerB,

In terms of 1st world medical advice regarding
snake bite, it's pretty much across the board that
Tourniquets, incisions and vacuuming are no no.
Even with a pressure bandage it has to be done
correctly, even the 'Pros' don't always get it right.
Some advise not applying such for the risk of
getting it wrong and doing more harm than good.

There are other deciding factors such as what type
of toxin..eg: neurotoxin(elapids) Vs haemotoxin(vipers).
but it's not always that simplistic, for some vipers
can deliver nuerotoxin and some elapids haemotoxin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550186/

Interesting enough, snake venom contains a catalyst enzyme
Phospholipase A2, which is naturally in the human body
playing an important role in immune system inflammation response
where it is responsible for cell membrane degradation.

The layer of muscle found below the skin where blood readily flows. Vipers have fangs large enough to puncture through the dermis, the lymphatic and into muscle.

As Starman points out, pressure bandages on bite site and up the limb (then back down) and immobilisation for neurotoxins (most Australian snakes) to reduce or stop flow within the lymphatic system.

Brown Snake bite site
https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/fc800bcc46fe5524137e7e77450fce4b

Treatment for neurotoxin (Australian) snakes




Covering bandages and control of blood flow within the body (not cessation through a torniquet) for hemotoxins from Vipers like Rattlesnakes. A hemotoxin bite will swell quickly and generate significant pain sensations - the swelling prevents pressure bandages from being as effective on the bite site as you may need to remove them as the bite site swells. In this case a pressure bandage to control blood flow upstream through the limb is worthy (but NOT a torniquet). Pressure and immobilisation are again the trick, but not necessarily the bite site due to swelling.

Rattlesnake bite site
https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxn...20/405/TN-Snake-Bite-2.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

Treatment for Hemotoxin (Viper) snakes




The types of venom work very differently and whilst both are bad, neurotoxins will kill faster with little other visible damage whilst hemotoxins do more visible damage through localised necrosis, whilst killing slowly.

Brown snakes make no noise and the strike is laser fast with little or no real feeling, less than a blackberry sting.

Rattlesnakes let you know you are too close, are fast and apparently there is a distinct 'tap' (probably because of the larger puncture).

Eastern Brown is responsible for most bites in Aus.
It has one of the most potent snake toxins on the planet
comprising of Neurotoxins (presynaptic and postsynaptic)
and powerful Procoagulants.
Most bites are 'dry bites' but in cases of severe envenomation ,
clinical effects are likely to be Coagulopathy/defribination
and Renal impairment or failure, with much less likelyhood
of respiratory failure. The venom is not known for myotoxic
or necrotoxic mechanism of action.

Data on severe envenomation cases:
5% have cardiac arrest(secondary cardiotoxicity)
10% Thrombotic microangiopathy(TMA)
(a pathophysiological condition that majorly
contributes to renal failure)
[sources; ASP-14, ASP-18, QJM 2009, IJM 2007,
CSL 2012]

Blood also readily flows through dermis capillaries and arterioles & venules
of the cutaneous vascular plexus, so why would you not count that in your
termed 'blood layer'?

At rest, BFR in skin and muscle is in the range
of 1-3 ml/100g/min. and 1-4 ml/100g/min.
respectively.

Lifted pretty near wholesale from https://litfl.com/brown-snake-toxinology/ - even down to the footnotes.

The king of Google, pretending to expertise he doesn't have, by stealing content he actually only half understands (and that is being generous).

Wow the fact I provided footnotes indicates
it's not my work. But you had to come and state
the obvious..a gotcha fail.

You "provided" footnotes which you clearly hadn't read. Moreover, you clearly don't know how to footnote.

A case in point: the footnote you cite as "ASP-18", is a reference to a paper which goes to a part of the article you hadn't stolen. The paper is properly cited as:

A randomized controlled trial of fresh frozen plasma for treating venom induced consumption coagulopathy in cases of Australian snakebite (ASP-18). Isbister, G.K., et al. Journal of Thrombosis and Haemostasis, 11(7), 1310-1318.

It has nothing to do with any of what you said lifted, unattributed, from someone else's work. This would have been obvious if you knew what you were talking about.

Folks here like myself have suggested pressure bandages without citing
medical sources for such potentially life saving advice...why haven't you
taken them to task on that?...seems like you have a personal axe to grind
instead of contributing something positive to the thread.


I abbreviated sources simply to show it wasn't my
work..Im happy with that , but you can nit pick
like a useless bitter old whore if you want...good luck.

I'm taking you to task because you pretend to knowledge you don't have, you pretend to be an expert when clearly you are not, and you shamelessly steal from other people's work, pretending that this is your own knowledge. It isn't the first time for you. You are a serial bullsh!t artist.

It has nothing to do with mentioning pressure bandages.

Again. I clearly indicated it's Not my work
by the string of footnote citations I gave,
and you are still making the false accusation
that I claim it as my work..I can't fix your kind
of stupid.


The fact you cherry pick what you want to attack is rather telling..
Why would you not want professional medical citations
for snake bite emergency first aid procedures?

You are trying to deflect with pressure bandages. That was not the subject of the stolen post about which I took you to task. Moreover, it was not you who proposed pressure bandages for bites from Australian snakes. It is in fact part of the established treatment protocol here.

The issues with your "string of footnotes" are several. First, you did not acknowledge that what you posted, above those footnotes, was directly lifted from someone else's work, and you pretended this was your own expertise. Second, you lifted the footnotes holus bolus from the post from which you stole, to lend credence to what you said, without attributing the substance of your post to its author. Third, you didn't read, or understand the material you footnoted, much of which had nothing to do with the material you stole.

Like I said, you are the Google king, stealing material and pretending to be the world's leading expert on everything, but you are nothing but a blowhard and a bullsh!t artist. This is by no means the first time for you. You aren't fooling anyone.

No just pointing out your blatant double standards Where You will complain when
I cite a string of sources for the info I posted...but then you don't call people out
for not citing med.sources regarding recommendations on snake bite emergency
first aid...too funny.


My response to KiilerB did in fact mention Pressure bandage application both in favor
and contra dependent on the snake/venom type and skill level of person applying such.


You make that claim without appropriate
citation from medical professionals.
People here also claim cutting and sucking
the wound works....who to believe?


I made no such claim. And anyone checking
the sources I gave would know that it wasn't.
You really are desperate to try make your false
accusation stick while the evidence contradicts.

You didn't "cite a string of sources for the info" you posted. The sources you cited, badly, had clearly not even been read by you, and were in large part unrelated to the "info" you posted.

I know that pressure bandage, keeping the patient calm and immobile is part of the established protocol here because among other things, I have had formal training in it, extending over 40 years, do a regular refresher training which includes it (including practical) every two years, and have applied it to actual snake bite victims. Moreover, there's already been the St John's WA material posted. There's numerous sources for this. They even teach it in schools here. Plenty of clinical guidance material on line for you. You are the Google king, go ahead and look it up.

You are a joke.

LoL. All we are hearing from you is that 'You know' and folks need to trust you?
No citations of professional medical repute to back any of your claims.

Of course that is not to forget Struan Sutherland's seminal paper on this in the Lancet, back in 1979:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/84206/

Well that wasn't that hard was it?
Now perhaps read the CF where
I did discuss pressure bandages
And retract your blatant lie that I didn't.

Chill 💊

Yes, but too hard for you to do, clearly.



Hahaha. You can't help yourself. No, you idiot. I neither said that, lied nor do I resile from one word I posted.

Take your bullsh!t somewhere else. GFY

LoL, so you won't read the CF where I clearly
Proposed the pressure bandage pros/cons?
you rather stick to your lies...


You sure about that?

Starman, the article you cling to is more than a decade old and several years out of date.

Treatment protocols are now recognising the value of immobilisation by bandage to reduce blood flow when providing first aid to Viper envenomation. The recognition of maintaining flow of blood in the affected limb whilst simultaneously constraining that flow has changed treatment. With the newer specifically designed pressure bandages with the squares to gauge amount of pressure it is a more reliable treatment and like the cuff used to measure blood pressure it does slow blood flow through the limb, less in, less back to the body. It is a soft splint.

However, the bandage presents difficulty in tracking progression of the venom and there is a significant danger if the bandage is removed without other control measures in place.

The best immediate treatment is keep the limb low, no exercise and HOSPITAL STAT!

But, if you must walk to a cleared area for medevac, or all the way to a road for vehicle pickup the pressure bandage is far superior to nothing. It is about managing contradictory risks.

Then cite current med. sources supporting the
methodology of pressure bandage in NA viper envenomation
..I'm only aware of some which suggest a firm bandage over
the bite site.

The source I cited stated:
" jointly endorsed by the American College of Medical Toxicology,
the American Academy of Clinical Toxicology,
the American Association of Poison Control Centers,
the International Society on Toxinology,
the European Association of Poison Centres and Clinical Toxicologists,
and the Asia Pacific Association of Medical Toxicology,
and concludes that pressure bandage with immobilization (PBI)
cannot be recommended as pre-hospital care in areas such as
North America, where non-neurotoxic snakebite is the norm."

Can you confirm that any or all of those Named entities
have changed their above position?


And you failed to address the follow on
'blood layer' anatomy query I put to you
...why is that?