Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles List your ar15 accurizing tips

Thats why they call them modern sporting rifles. Theres a lot of versatility there. If it was just about shooting man sized targets, i would have never started this thread.

Since I haven't shot the same rifles with an A2 stock & then changed it to some kind of an M4 stock, I cannot quantitatively say how much difference the stock makes on the same rifle with me shooting it.

But all my rifles are built to my own "precision" standards, & to me that means ALL top tier parts, including top level single or 2-stage triggers & suspect that if I performed the trial above I might see from an 1/8" to maybe a 1/4" at the most, difference in group size.............but maybe nothing either.

My guns are not built to be "minute of man" & most will do MOA, with a few maybe slightly >MOA, but then again, not every gun has, or will have, extensive specific load development...........they just get generic loads that are used in other guns. I'm not interested in doing long load development for a dozen different modern sporting rifles; I really want as many as possible to shoot acceptably with as few a load variations as possible...........in doing that, obviously, some will be a little more or less optimized than other.

The ones that are sub-MOA all have stainless barrels; the others have either nitrided or chrome lined barrels, but all are top tier barrels in their type category.

But for the designated purposes of any of the guns, an 1/8" - 1/4" change in group size is meaningless...............it's only meaningful for true competiters or those interested in maximizing bragging rights.

MM

I prefer the A2 stock because I’m running a 10x swfa and the stock is much more comfortable than a M4 style stock. Everyone is different, but what I see in use on the line is a very telling thing. As my drill sergeant told me many moons ago. Private When in Rome, Do as the Romans Do.

If I were doing what you're doing, I'd prolly use an A2 as well, right tool, right job.

MM

MM, I'm wondering how many of us do exactly what you are describing with their loads. I know I'm guilty of it. Sometimes I laugh at myself and think about that old saying, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". How true is that with some of your loads and rifles, specifically AR's. For me anyway. I'll laugh at myself because it really describes what I've been doing for a while. I like showing pictures to show you guys what I mean. I remember developing a load for my stag, it was a pretty good load with the 69gr SMK bullet. It shot into sub moa consistently. For a long time, I'd strive to do better with each visit to the range. That was with the same load. That load in particular proved to be very good for just about every AR rifle I own:

I shot that 3 years ago, and still use that same load. Later I shot a score that almost tied my heavy azzed stag, with a rifle I had found locally all put together exactly how I wanted. It was used, but I had to buy it. I had a good feeling about it:

Plus it was not nearly as heavy as my 24" barreled Stag. Some remarks made about heavy axle barreled rifles, got me to thinking and I decided to get rid of the Stag. This used Northtech Defense shot very well with that 69gr sierra load:



Then comes my Noveske. That rifle Seemed to like that load too, but it has never shot a sub moa score in the black rifle challenge here:


Its been close, but no cigar. I was almost to the point of selling the Noveske, until the thread about iron sights came up. It got me to thinking that maybe I could throw some irons on that rifle, shoot it in some local events and maybe like the rifle more. I don't expect it to ever shoot sub moa in the black rifle challenge here, but I keep trying. And it is with the same old load I've been using in 3 different rifles..


Well, I tweaked the load a bit to get closer to MOA with the old Noveske:




For me, the only reason I bought an AR was so I could shoot the black rifle challenge here. So in a way, it's always been about accuracy for me. Where the AR's are concerned. With that being said, the 69gr SMK load isn't the only load I have. For a while I was on a 73 ELD match load kick. My new Colt loves that load, even better than the SMK load. Then there's the 77TMK which looks real promising. I'm glad there are guys here that can add to this thread because I know there are more here that are concerned about getting the most out of their AR's. I'm not the only one.

The 2 most consistently accurate bullets I've used in an AR, across a decent number of rifles, are the 69 & 77 gr SMK's..................when in doubt, always try one of those 1st.

If a rifle doesn't shoot one or both of those well (assuming 7-8 twist) then it likely will have bigger problems with anything else.

I still shoot a lot of 75 Hornady's because they are MUCH cheaper & accurate enough for most jobs, but never as accurate in the absolute sense as the SMK's.

Jury is still out on TMK's, IMO..............for me, comparable on smaller shot number groups, not quite as good as the number of shots / group increases in my trials & what I've also read in testing from other, in particular, MOLON over at AR15.com & on SH as he is basically an oracle.

But still more than good enough for most practical uses.............with improved BC over the SMK.

Black Hill 77 gr TMK Tetst

MM

Ive had good luck with the 77TMK. But after checking velocities, i found them to be running pretty slow. In the 2550-2600 fps. I think it was you that told me i should check the velocities on that load. I was shooting sub moa 10 shot groups from 2 different rifles using compass lake chambers and 20" stainless tubes. Back to the drawing board with those bullets, as soon as i find more.

How do you check the bolt seats square to the extension?
This seems like a quality control issue with those parts or is there something that can be done after the fact?

You can observe wear marks but mostly it's something I look at after all else is done.

I have tightened groups by simply swapping bolts, I figure it's a tolerance stacking issue. I do run a field gauge before shooting.

I think AR's benefit from tuned loads better than bolt guns. meaning dinking around with loads gives more dramatic effect with AR's. since uppers are so cheap. I wish barrel makers would just start offering fitted uppers with their barrels. have the barrel extension fit so tight that you have to cool the barrel and heat the upper in an oven to fit it. an upper is $30 bucks why not

Twr, im sure using a reaction rod when torquing the barrel nut down also helps to keep things lined up.

Well... unless something is really out of whack, I don't think the receiver or hand guard and for that matter the bolt carrier play that big a roll in this. Let me try to explain.

The barrel extension screwed into the barrel and the bolt lugs locking into the extension hold all the pressure and are the only sold lockup in the system. The bolt relies on gas rings to keep it lined up in the carrier, the upper receiver has enough slop in it to allow the carrier to run back and forth. Even a tight "bedded" barrel/receiver only keeps your sight plane straight.

Think of it as a bolt gun, you square the receiver to the barrel. In an AR this is the barrel extension into the barrel. The aluminum receiver will conform to the barrel extension, unless it's way off, it ain't gonna matter how square the receiver is.

Next you have a bolt guns bolt lugs lapped to get even support to line the case up. With an AR, the lugs lock into the extension to do the same thing. The pressure on the gas rings, the slop of the carrier inside the aluminum receiver play little to nothing on the way the bolt locks into the extension unless something is way out of whack.


So as long as the bolt settles squarely into the extension supporting the case squarely into the chamber, it's gonna shoot. At least that's my understanding of the system.

Please don't think I said it doesn't matter if anything else is square or not or read anything into this but if the bolt doesn't lock into the extension squarely and the chamber square to the extension, it'll never be right. I'm sure I explained it clear as mud.

I'm kind of following, except most guys say a freefloating handguard has a big impact on accuracy. Now, if you take my new to me Colt sporter target model into consideration, I'd say those guys are nuts. That rifle shoots pretty dang good. I don't really see any weird anomalies when shooting groups with it. No strange unexplained fliers. However, the little debacle I had with my Noveske NSR attachment screws contacting the barrel and greatly affecting accuracy was an eye opener. I'd have to say the uneven contact on the barrel could induce stress on the barrel, thus affecting accuracy. Maybe it changed the barrel harmonics just enough to make some shots really act up. The proof to the problem was when I ground down the screws and things went back to normal. It was weird. What it does remind me of is when you have too long of a screw in the front base of a bolt action and that screw is making contact with the barrel threads. This is a known issue and cause for inaccuracy. As with most platforms, its all the little things that add up and make a problem. Since we are talking how to get the most out of our AR rifles in regards to consistent accuracy, even the most minute issue should be addressed and not overlooked. Speaking of minutia, the guy I was talking to that owns an AR shop locally, said even the anti walk trigger pins makes a difference, as well as the captured recoil spring system. He says the more consistent you can keep things, the better accuracy you are going to get. That kind of makes sense as well..

I like that idea..

Everything we can do to make things more consistent will no doubt contribute to better accuracy.

This is offered. Just not for $30.00

Two other bullets that do very well for me are the 52gr NCC and the 50-55 gr Nosler Varmageddon, flat base hollow points, for those who like bullets on the other size of the weight spectrum. Of course the 52 and 53 gr SMK's are still the gold standard in that weight range.

P60 Sierra flat base HPs are often overlooked also

OT here a bit. But so much thanks to John 79S.
Finally due to a covid slow fishing clients year he drug me out to double string match at 600 the other day.

Its been about 16 years since I"ve shot a match. Used his gun and ammo. It was AR tactical. Was told by others we couldn't use a small bag on the rear so the gun moved way more than it would in a sling to me.

That said, no excuses, but I"m rusty and old. His gun shoots great. Load is accurate. But this isn't shooting off a bench at 100 yards to see if the gun is capable.

Richardson had some wind the other night. Match was 5-11 pm. Wind would come from right to left and then it would come up behind you and trickle down the range and wiggle waggle. The best flag to read on the range was not accurate to me. The ones that were had a wide variance of what they meant. And cease fire for small aircraft below 5000 feet were common.

Best one could do is try to set up in the 10 ring as best you could, and protect yourself from 9s and IF you got a condition bang em down as fast as the target would come back up from scoring.

195 and some Xs and 198 and some Xs. Not really pretty. Could be much prettier if I used a rear bag instead of using muscle power.

The folks at the Alaska Rifle Club are some great folks! They did an outstanding job running pits and match. although spray adhesive was new to me in the pits. LOL. And I forgot the double meatball if you accidentally pull a target from under someone. HARD to see the faces. No way to see impacts. Took me some time to get used to hearing the right crack of the bullet. But I enjoy pit puling too.

Even saw a relic with open sights on the line.

Thanks John! Sorry for embarrassing your rifle so badly. But seemed it was a decent score overall.


Just goes to show that 10 at 100 isnt nearly the same as 20 at 600 from position, with pit service and twitchy winds.

Jeff