Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles List your ar15 accurizing tips

Guys, list your accurizing tips and tricks for the AR platform rifle. I was talking to a shop owner who builds custom precision AR's and he was telling me about some of the things he suggests for accurizing ar rifles. I'll list what he named off and see what you think. It would be nice to hear from some of you guys that shot the MOA all day long and black rifle challenge here. Anyway, here's the starting of a list from the guy at the shop:

1. Truing the face of the upper receiver.
2. Accu wedge to remove slop in upper and lower receiver fit.
3. Captured recoil spring system. JP enterprises or Armaspec stealth buffer system.
4. 2 stage match/varmint trigger or single stage match trigger with anti walk pins.
5. Barrel properly torqued.
6. Anyone here care to explain how to bed a barrel into a receiver?
7. Good quality barrel: What's your favorite? WOA, Shillen, Windaham Weaponry, Noveske, Wilson Combat, etc.
8. Tuned handloads.
9. Comfortable butt stock. I prefer the PRS stock for shooting prone or off the bench.
10. Good comfortable grip. I prefer the K2+
11. Good solid cantilever scope mount.
12. Proven scope. My favorites for the AR are the AR556 and AR762 4.5-14x42 made by Burris.
13. Good solid beefy upper. Which do you prefer? My favorite is Northtech Defense.
14. Freefloating handguard.

Feel free to add to the list or make your own list. I'm sure some of you guys will have your own recipe. That of which will probably include an adjustable gas block. But does it really make the rifle more accurate than a well tuned buffer weight system or capture spring system? Probably not.. Let me know what I left out. If you want, post some pics of your extremely accurate ar's (I'm talking 10 shot groups too). TWR will appreciate that.


What made me think of starting this thread today was when I changed the handguard on my 6WOA. I wanted to put the 16.7 NSR back on my 6WOA because I don't like the round Hogue thats been on it. The Hogue just looks cheap, but the rifle shot better with it vs. the NSR. I had to think about why I was getting weird fliers with the Noveske handguard installed last time. I came to the conclusion that the 6 handguard locking screws were bottoming out on the barrel last time and I knew this was probably the problem. Today I ground down the screws so it locked down to the barrel nut and stayed clear of the barrel itself. After shooting the rifle today, I think that was the problem. It shot great. No random fliers like before. It looks mucho better with the Noveske NSR on it too:

This ^^^^is an old picture of the rifle, but you get the idea.

Here's how it looked with the Hogue handguard:



For iron sights, all things in the list apply. But I'll add, find a good set of iron sights, if you want to focus on precision. The Ultradyne C4 flip up irons sights, that I've been playing around with are hard to beat in the Accuracy department. Have a happy and safe 4th of July guys...

I’m probably gonna upset a few here but here goes.

Start with a good barrel and make sure the bolt seats square with the barrel extension when locked up. (I do not mean squaring the upper)

Keep the barrel nut torque on the low side of the range. I don’t like to go over 40’ lbs

Free float the barrel.

Feed it good ammo.

Everything else is to help you shoot more comfortably or to help the company that designed the latest gizmo make money.

Good barrel
Good trigger
Good sights.

Good barrel
Tight fitting thermo upper or glue/shim in the barrel

Repeat until you get it right...............if those are not in place all else will not be effective.

Good trigger & good ammo go w/o saying.

MM

I like that. Good point on the barrel nut torque.

TWR,
What is your procedure to insure the above?

You forgot the trigger.

Good stuff MM. Its that kind of stuff that doesn't get brought up often here. I know rost has talked lightly about bedding a barrel into the receiver, but the glue shim idea isn't spoken about often enough. I know there are guys that shoot a chidt ton here. Some don't give a fu ck about accuracy, but only care about "MOM". While others are concerned about getting sub moa accuracy. I've heard guys like rost say that most ar's are cabable of delivering moa accuracy for 10 shots, yet there aren't a lot of guys proving that theory. Hence the reason for starting this thread. If you guys have proven methods, I'd like to hear them.. I'm still new to the platform and not a "spray and pray" shooter. Never have been, and likely never will be..

I see the AR as a damn useful tool:


Even the ones with irons should be expected to shoot well.


MOM or not.. and yes, that is a "light" rifle without a "truck axle" for a barrel on it..

BSA,

Thanks for the nice pics. They were very enjoyable.

I'd greatly appreciate our members comments, guidance, or instructions on #6 above.

Thanks.

I'm sure rost495 knows far more than I do, but I'm not buying that particular statement.

Personally, I think you have to have a top tier barrel to have it shoot 10 rounds consistently sub MOA.

And only top level AR's have that, but having said that, there are lots of top tier barrel makers today provided you are willing to cough up the $$$$.

YMMV.

MM

Bedding the barrel has been talked about a lot on other gun forums. Some say it works others say it doesn’t. I bedded my green mtn barrel because slop between barrel extension and receiver. I recently picked up an ARP barrel and I had to tap it into the receiver. So if one wants to avoid bedding a barrel make sure the barrel company is using a quality barrel extension. Plenty of articles on the World Wide Web about barrel extensions. But bedding a barrel you take loktite 620 put it on the barrel extension and put in the receiver. Then you torque your barrel nut and let the loktite setup.

I do use loctite to bed the barrel into the receiver, forgot about that.

UP, I didn't forget about the trigger, that was in the section of everything thing else is for you. A good trigger does nothing for the mechanical accuracy of the gun. It just makes it easier for us to shoot it.

As for squaring the bolt, I'm not smart enough to figure out how to measure it but I have a friend that had a gun that was just almost a great shooter. One of his customers and friends is a top shooter/Smith and he looked at it. He lapped the bolt into the barrel extension and viola, the gun came around. Ever since then I've played with bolts when everything else was done.

Another thing is don't over tighten muzzle devices. I use red or green loctite and get em timed by trimming the crush washer and count on a barely snug fit and the loctite to hold it.

Each item has some impact on how the rifle shoots BUT...

The biggest one is the barrel... most guys don’t know how to check a barrel by slugging it, and then lapping any issues they find out of the barrel.

Then chamber, lug engagement, and barrel contacts ... after tiggers the things that plan in get pretty small.

Good post MM. However, Im wondering about something an airborne ranger buddy told me a while back, that kind of made me think a bit. He said the ar industry is hot right now, the companies are in competition with one another. A lot of new manufactures wanting their product to thrive, so you are seeing more and more accuracy guarantees and happy customers. It made sense to me when he explained it. The sob gave me a good run for my money on our last ar shoot too. Id like to say he was cheating with his bluetooth sig sauer scope too, but then he'd probably say i was cheating with my rifle in the iron sight division And yes, we all have to give rost credit for knowing his chidt. The man can shoot. Im wondering how hes doing. Probably catching fish right now. Im appreciative of the knowledge base this particular forum has to offer. Hope you guys are having a great 4th!!

I will let you know on Tuesday how Rost is doing.. he's coming down to shoot 600yds at our club shoot which will be a sanctioned NRA 40rd mid range shoot. I do have a question at your club shoots are you guys using shooting bags and bench to shoot of of?

Cool, let us know how he's doing. Good luck with your shoot. We shoot off the bench and off hand and other positions. Depending on what the guys want to do. It's not a NRA sanctioned shoot, so we make our own rules buddy.. That's why we shot 10 shots in 10 seconds at 100 yards. My score was 100-9x and 10 shots clean. My buddy, the airborne ranger came in second with 8 shots on target. All in the 10 ring. Of course, he lost 20 points right off the bat because he couldn't get all 10 shots off in the time allotted. I'm the one that suggested that shoot. Partly because the guys from Vancouver (clark rifles) suggested a "speed shoot". Their idea of a "speed shoot" was 10 shots in 60 seconds. To me, that was childs play and a ridiculously long time. They didn't want to play those games and decided to drop out at that point. It's not even like I asked them to throw a hundy on the table.. Granted, I did just that the other day when a couple marines were up at the range with their fancy AR's. I even said they could use their fancy AR's and I'd use my iron sighted AR.. They were smart and didn't take me up on the offer.. Do you want me to get a jacket and start shooting without a bench John? The sooner you realize shooting is shooting, the better off you will be..

Thanks spotshooter. Good info.

Lol oh boy...

I will let Rost post how he’s doing..

finally a day that I get to be an hour late to the dock AND.. have cell signal enough to read....

I've not had a barrel extension/reciever loose enough to matter.. yet... but loctite and or a smidge of bedding compound could solve it. I'd prefer not to though personally. Locks the barrel to the receiver. and it may ruin the receiver getting it out. Surely don't use 640....

Barrel and its assembly is most important to me. Most of the rest is fluff. Even a float tube. But a tube prevents barrel tension if you sling up. There is a way around that though by proper use of the sling.

Most ARs will shoot MOA. With the right load. I've yet to see one that wouldn't shoot MOA with a 5 shot group at 100. That said we each define parameters as we wish. BSA has his 10 shot thing and thats his call. But typically it always was 5 shots into an inch or less, even if thats not exactly MOA is what I"m talking about. At 100 yards. And just because you can shoot 10 into MOA at 100 doesn't nearly mean you can at 600. But you have a start.

As to the time limits for rapid in NRA/CMP lets just say it can't be all that easy if most folks are not shooting 200s in those matches. Especially the CMP no sighter matches. I"ve shot sub MOA groups in 300 rapid and they be in the 9 ring. Due to lighting, or wind etc... or just me. RE irons. I've never shot a scoped match in my life. FWIW.

Once most people are shooting clean then NRA typically makes the target harder. Have not heard that mentioned yet. Heck I've not even heard that we have this whole slew of 500/800s shot now since going to optics. And since having guns capable of MOA are so common out there one would think everyone would be shooting them. But the whole issue is the loose nut behind the butt. They often think its easy and simple and find out its not quite that. I know I never thought it would be simple to shoot well. And it never was. And I certainly never was a top shooter either. But somehow I ended up after years with a high master in across the course and long range. Blind hog finding an acorn as it was.

Since BSA shoots what he wants, when he wants at their ranges, its hard for me to swallow the fact that rapids are simple to him. They may be. He may might could be a 200 shooter in rapids all the time. But there are lots of other things going on in a position match vs shooting 10 in 10 seconds off a bench with a bipod and scope. Each has its own issues.

Maybe its time we get BSA into shooting high-power ever weekend for a year and see what we get? LOL. Probably hand me my tail. Shooting is shooting. But its not. IF it was then I"d do ok at any match style I entered. That is far from the case. Usually not at the bottom, but not at the top. The more actually sanctioned matches you get in of all types though the better you get because of many things including stress. We shot silhouette of all kinds. Bullseye pistol. Smallbore 3-4 position. Palma(with a service rifle). Long range. Mid range. 3 gun. IDPA. IPSC. lots of local range thrown together stuff which I did usually win, since they were not really that challenging and almost never involved positions. Probably forgetting some. But shotguns prove shooting is not shooting. I rarely hit 50% with them...

And yes, praise the Lord, I probably will shoot a match on the 7th for the first time since 2004. I have zero gear up here. But this really good guy I know is loaning a gun and ammo so I can play. Not even sure my eyes will see 600 anymore. But the gun might even have optics on it. I really wish we were swamped with trips like a normal year. Going to be really hard to pay bills this year, but hey, we had a day off yesterday, got in a helo, flew up to a lake, and fished the stream back out to a river pickup. It was slow, but we missed more than we landed, as was 3 of us guides landed 60 rainbows in a 11 hour day. Lost well over 60 in the little creek. Nothing over 22ish inches but all topwater fly rod mousing mostly. A blast.

Fishing was slow to start. But pretty good now. Cannot get a 50 plus pound King to the net yet. Certainly would have by now if we had lots of clients. But we are only taking one trip a day right now and doing lots of maintenance work. Had one over 50 coming to the top the other day after about 25 minutes, needed about 5 minutes more but hook pulled. Only lures and a single hook allowed. Catch an release. 35s are the biggest I have netted so far. Happy clients though.

Lets cross our fingers on Tuesday. Have an early charter that morning and then haul tail to Wasilla for a ride.

BTW let me address the OP first post numbers

1 can't hurt.
2 no. It actually does, by a tiny bit but its not worth it. Only visible at 300 yards to my tests and then bedding upper to lower is better than a wedge one side only. Plus the wedge or orings flex... you don't want flex when you talk bedding
3 no
4 no
5 its important not to over torque
6 not my thing
7 Favorite barrel is usually what a smith suggests.... only exception is I"ll never use a Douglas ever again
8 they don't make a gun shoot better so to speak but they allow you to get the most accuracy you can. Generally simply due to vibration nodes
9no
10no
11no. But if you don't have a good mount or scope you won't know if the gun can shoot. But I've shot groups around 1.5 inches at 600, 5 shots testing, with the old mount in the handle of an A2.. and regularly got 3-4 inch groups at that range
12no, but again see 11
13 won't hurt, but then again we used to be limited to A2... so while they can't hurt, others can do well
14 No. But it helps as noted above on sling tension,. I":d think with a bipod too but I"ve never shot an AR off a bipod. Sling or bags.

Gotta run. Dock and boat await.

Jeff

I don't think I ever said 10 shots. I may have. Who knows.

But 5 shots into an inch at 100 isn't that hard. Even my dreaded Douglas barrels would do that. Have seen more that a few model 1 sales type tubes do it too. But those are guns gone through to make sure things are asembled correctly. Granted some take more work than you would like IE finding the right bullet(often the twist isn't true and they also want flat base bullets or bullets lighter or heavier than you would think) but generally if it was trying to see if it was capable, they almost all would. I"ve seen one that would only do it with Sierra 40 grain blitz... which would have been of no use to me....

Using a top line barrel is a great start though. Helps when your friend is an old BR shooter turned HP and now retired and filled his garage with stuff... Even green mountain blanks shoot well.. and they are usually cheap enough. Shilen blanks are reasonable. And never flies on Krieger, Rock, Obermeyer, Etc... even Pac Nor was always any ok barrel for us.

Lots of brands I don't recall that brownells had on sale at times were good enough. Frankly an inch at 100 for 5 shots really isn't anything, and accuracy at 100 only really doesn't tell the tale to me. I like to seek 10 shot groups from an AR at 300 that are 2 inches or under. Hunting guns I want 3 shots into a small enough group at long enough distance that I have wobble and wind room by a bit if possible.

Headed to the boat.

Jeff

Good stuff Jeff. Thanks for your input

High power shooter in the club here and he does 5 shot groups with his rifle. Then he verifies that load with a 10 shot string. I guess it works for him he’s a high master.

That should work for just about anyone. That's generally how I roll..Sometimes you can see a problem load even after the first 3 shots.. I know some of us don't care for 3 shot groups much, but I've ran 3 shot groups and seen a definite pattern develop while working up loads. Since we are talking AR rifles, here's one I like to post every once in a while. It's from when I was developing a load for my Armalite AR10 308:





Even Stevie Wonder can see where the accuracy node is for that one.....

I don't even do that. If a load can score clean, I shoot it. If it doesn't, I move on. Last week at 3 & 600 combined, I shot over 98%.

Very nice!

Good shooting Tyrone!

Jeff, glad things are going well in AK for you.

A 60 day rainbow day is a good day no matter how you cut it...........

What's your beef with Douglas barrels? I don't have any, other than on bolt guns, but Compass Lake sells a lot of them with seemingly few complaints, & Frank white wouldn't put his name on junk.

MM

Good shooting!

Last yr my first year shooting competition in the AR tactical class. I fought my equipment for 2 months trying to make my setup work. I started off using magpul m4 stock (wrong choice) big time. But i tried to make it work. Then I tried and tried different loads. Finally put an A2 stock on it, Finally got a good load and finished last yr out pretty good. This yr I worked on a load using 75gr eld-m and I shot a 197-6x in our first fun match. My daughter wanted to shoot as well, so I built her a 224 Valkyrie with an 20 inch ARP barrel A2 stock a good trigger 10x SWFA and her first time shooting at 600yds she shot a 199-11X. The load I used has been used by a bunch of 224 Valkyrie shooters and they call it the red rocket it’s a 80gr ELD-M going 2900 fps. ARP chambered these barrels specifically for the 80gr ELD-M bullets. When building her AR I took from my mistakes and made sure she had a great setup. I did switch scope and put a 6x swfa to minimize parallax. Tuesday see if she can keep it up.

Your daughter is doing good buddy. Shooting with the kids is always fun. She sounds like a natural. My daughter shoots pretty good herself...
She likes my 6.5 CM AR10

I agree quite a bit with this list. I do #1 and #2, never used #3 but instead Sprinco Blue spring with an H1 buffer and an SLR adjustable gas block, prefer single stage match triggers, have bedded barrels with the green Loc-tite but tried #243 and so far it's worked, like WOA barrels, have a Super-chicken 3-9 HD on my .223 Wylde, a Leupold VX-3i 2.5-8X36 CDS on my 6.8 SPC II, and prefer either thermo-fitting a BCM or using a Vltor MUR-1 and bedding it.

The Leupold has worked great so far, this rifle will see time in the woods so I kept that in mind.

I have several rifles with a Midwestern Industries Gen3 handguard, and one additional step I take is to not let the handguard contact the upper. I don't know if it helps, but I feel better knowing if I load uo the handguard it won't transfer any pressure to the upper. I give it .010" to .015".

My biggest issue is finding the proper setting for the nut between the buttpad and the chair....

Ha ha. I think that is the weak link for most of us here. The nut behind the butt... I really noticed that when I was first learning to shoot the AR. It was a learning experience for me and still is. I find that finding the right parts to adapt the ar platform to the use really helps. One of the reason I listed the grip and buttstock and good trigger in my list. If anything, it helps with comfort and with comfort comes better/more consistent accuracy. At least for me it does. Good point on the handguard not touching the barrel too. Freefloating the hanguard has been known to help with consistency. Like I mentioned in a previous post, I noticed weird/wild groupings from my 6WOA after changing my handguard. I realized the screws that attach the Noveske NSR handguard to the barrel nut were touching the barrel. I figured that was a major issue and ground down the screws so they were not in contact with the barrel anymore, the groups instantly shrank and were right back to where they were when I was using the ugly as hell hogue handguard. Its little things like that, that one doesn't think about, but could be a major issue that should be brought up in a thread like this. It may help someone out if they are experiencing the same issues.

I have to admit that if I did load testing, as in get out with several different loads and compare each one, I'd find the good ones faster.

But....that would be less shooting and fewer trips to the range.

Ain't no sense in a man living like that. (grin)

This is an important & interesting point & while there's little doubt that a fixed A2, or maybe ever a PRS, or similar stock will help the shooter to shoot small groups, my AR's are not really built for that particular task & while I'm sure that fine groups would almost surely improve with the addition of such, I'm not going to do that.

So all my guns & anything that I post or have posted, are shot with some variety of a basic M4 stock, usually SOPMOD or similar version style.

MM

I like the SOPMOD. I did handle an A1 the other day and I still don't understand why they added 5/8" to it to come up with the A2.

I like the A2 stock as well, but they seem short to me. The only adjustable carbine type stock i dont mind is the magpul ACS.

While small groups are the goal, if you look across the board at service rifle shooters majority run A2 style stock. If I were to build a dedicated [bleep] goes south AR it would be in a M4 configuration w/16 inch barrel. What’s interesting is how the marine corp uses A4 and the Army going away from A2/A4 platform to the M4 platform. But I been in BCT’s the last 12 yrs I have only seen a couple A2 in those units that still hadn’t been turned in.

Yep, "small groups" are totally different things between bench, position, bipod and SHTF shooting.

Thats why they call them modern sporting rifles. Theres a lot of versatility there. If it was just about shooting man sized targets, i would have never started this thread.

Since I haven't shot the same rifles with an A2 stock & then changed it to some kind of an M4 stock, I cannot quantitatively say how much difference the stock makes on the same rifle with me shooting it.

But all my rifles are built to my own "precision" standards, & to me that means ALL top tier parts, including top level single or 2-stage triggers & suspect that if I performed the trial above I might see from an 1/8" to maybe a 1/4" at the most, difference in group size.............but maybe nothing either.

My guns are not built to be "minute of man" & most will do MOA, with a few maybe slightly >MOA, but then again, not every gun has, or will have, extensive specific load development...........they just get generic loads that are used in other guns. I'm not interested in doing long load development for a dozen different modern sporting rifles; I really want as many as possible to shoot acceptably with as few a load variations as possible...........in doing that, obviously, some will be a little more or less optimized than other.

The ones that are sub-MOA all have stainless barrels; the others have either nitrided or chrome lined barrels, but all are top tier barrels in their type category.

But for the designated purposes of any of the guns, an 1/8" - 1/4" change in group size is meaningless...............it's only meaningful for true competiters or those interested in maximizing bragging rights.

MM

I prefer the A2 stock because I’m running a 10x swfa and the stock is much more comfortable than a M4 style stock. Everyone is different, but what I see in use on the line is a very telling thing. As my drill sergeant told me many moons ago. Private When in Rome, Do as the Romans Do.

If I were doing what you're doing, I'd prolly use an A2 as well, right tool, right job.

MM

MM, I'm wondering how many of us do exactly what you are describing with their loads. I know I'm guilty of it. Sometimes I laugh at myself and think about that old saying, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result". How true is that with some of your loads and rifles, specifically AR's. For me anyway. I'll laugh at myself because it really describes what I've been doing for a while. I like showing pictures to show you guys what I mean. I remember developing a load for my stag, it was a pretty good load with the 69gr SMK bullet. It shot into sub moa consistently. For a long time, I'd strive to do better with each visit to the range. That was with the same load. That load in particular proved to be very good for just about every AR rifle I own:

I shot that 3 years ago, and still use that same load. Later I shot a score that almost tied my heavy azzed stag, with a rifle I had found locally all put together exactly how I wanted. It was used, but I had to buy it. I had a good feeling about it:

Plus it was not nearly as heavy as my 24" barreled Stag. Some remarks made about heavy axle barreled rifles, got me to thinking and I decided to get rid of the Stag. This used Northtech Defense shot very well with that 69gr sierra load:



Then comes my Noveske. That rifle Seemed to like that load too, but it has never shot a sub moa score in the black rifle challenge here:


Its been close, but no cigar. I was almost to the point of selling the Noveske, until the thread about iron sights came up. It got me to thinking that maybe I could throw some irons on that rifle, shoot it in some local events and maybe like the rifle more. I don't expect it to ever shoot sub moa in the black rifle challenge here, but I keep trying. And it is with the same old load I've been using in 3 different rifles..


Well, I tweaked the load a bit to get closer to MOA with the old Noveske:




For me, the only reason I bought an AR was so I could shoot the black rifle challenge here. So in a way, it's always been about accuracy for me. Where the AR's are concerned. With that being said, the 69gr SMK load isn't the only load I have. For a while I was on a 73 ELD match load kick. My new Colt loves that load, even better than the SMK load. Then there's the 77TMK which looks real promising. I'm glad there are guys here that can add to this thread because I know there are more here that are concerned about getting the most out of their AR's. I'm not the only one.

The 2 most consistently accurate bullets I've used in an AR, across a decent number of rifles, are the 69 & 77 gr SMK's..................when in doubt, always try one of those 1st.

If a rifle doesn't shoot one or both of those well (assuming 7-8 twist) then it likely will have bigger problems with anything else.

I still shoot a lot of 75 Hornady's because they are MUCH cheaper & accurate enough for most jobs, but never as accurate in the absolute sense as the SMK's.

Jury is still out on TMK's, IMO..............for me, comparable on smaller shot number groups, not quite as good as the number of shots / group increases in my trials & what I've also read in testing from other, in particular, MOLON over at AR15.com & on SH as he is basically an oracle.

But still more than good enough for most practical uses.............with improved BC over the SMK.

Black Hill 77 gr TMK Tetst

MM

Ive had good luck with the 77TMK. But after checking velocities, i found them to be running pretty slow. In the 2550-2600 fps. I think it was you that told me i should check the velocities on that load. I was shooting sub moa 10 shot groups from 2 different rifles using compass lake chambers and 20" stainless tubes. Back to the drawing board with those bullets, as soon as i find more.

How do you check the bolt seats square to the extension?
This seems like a quality control issue with those parts or is there something that can be done after the fact?

You can observe wear marks but mostly it's something I look at after all else is done.

I have tightened groups by simply swapping bolts, I figure it's a tolerance stacking issue. I do run a field gauge before shooting.

I think AR's benefit from tuned loads better than bolt guns. meaning dinking around with loads gives more dramatic effect with AR's. since uppers are so cheap. I wish barrel makers would just start offering fitted uppers with their barrels. have the barrel extension fit so tight that you have to cool the barrel and heat the upper in an oven to fit it. an upper is $30 bucks why not

Twr, im sure using a reaction rod when torquing the barrel nut down also helps to keep things lined up.

Well... unless something is really out of whack, I don't think the receiver or hand guard and for that matter the bolt carrier play that big a roll in this. Let me try to explain.

The barrel extension screwed into the barrel and the bolt lugs locking into the extension hold all the pressure and are the only sold lockup in the system. The bolt relies on gas rings to keep it lined up in the carrier, the upper receiver has enough slop in it to allow the carrier to run back and forth. Even a tight "bedded" barrel/receiver only keeps your sight plane straight.

Think of it as a bolt gun, you square the receiver to the barrel. In an AR this is the barrel extension into the barrel. The aluminum receiver will conform to the barrel extension, unless it's way off, it ain't gonna matter how square the receiver is.

Next you have a bolt guns bolt lugs lapped to get even support to line the case up. With an AR, the lugs lock into the extension to do the same thing. The pressure on the gas rings, the slop of the carrier inside the aluminum receiver play little to nothing on the way the bolt locks into the extension unless something is way out of whack.


So as long as the bolt settles squarely into the extension supporting the case squarely into the chamber, it's gonna shoot. At least that's my understanding of the system.

Please don't think I said it doesn't matter if anything else is square or not or read anything into this but if the bolt doesn't lock into the extension squarely and the chamber square to the extension, it'll never be right. I'm sure I explained it clear as mud.

I'm kind of following, except most guys say a freefloating handguard has a big impact on accuracy. Now, if you take my new to me Colt sporter target model into consideration, I'd say those guys are nuts. That rifle shoots pretty dang good. I don't really see any weird anomalies when shooting groups with it. No strange unexplained fliers. However, the little debacle I had with my Noveske NSR attachment screws contacting the barrel and greatly affecting accuracy was an eye opener. I'd have to say the uneven contact on the barrel could induce stress on the barrel, thus affecting accuracy. Maybe it changed the barrel harmonics just enough to make some shots really act up. The proof to the problem was when I ground down the screws and things went back to normal. It was weird. What it does remind me of is when you have too long of a screw in the front base of a bolt action and that screw is making contact with the barrel threads. This is a known issue and cause for inaccuracy. As with most platforms, its all the little things that add up and make a problem. Since we are talking how to get the most out of our AR rifles in regards to consistent accuracy, even the most minute issue should be addressed and not overlooked. Speaking of minutia, the guy I was talking to that owns an AR shop locally, said even the anti walk trigger pins makes a difference, as well as the captured recoil spring system. He says the more consistent you can keep things, the better accuracy you are going to get. That kind of makes sense as well..

I like that idea..

Everything we can do to make things more consistent will no doubt contribute to better accuracy.

This is offered. Just not for $30.00

Two other bullets that do very well for me are the 52gr NCC and the 50-55 gr Nosler Varmageddon, flat base hollow points, for those who like bullets on the other size of the weight spectrum. Of course the 52 and 53 gr SMK's are still the gold standard in that weight range.

P60 Sierra flat base HPs are often overlooked also

OT here a bit. But so much thanks to John 79S.
Finally due to a covid slow fishing clients year he drug me out to double string match at 600 the other day.

Its been about 16 years since I"ve shot a match. Used his gun and ammo. It was AR tactical. Was told by others we couldn't use a small bag on the rear so the gun moved way more than it would in a sling to me.

That said, no excuses, but I"m rusty and old. His gun shoots great. Load is accurate. But this isn't shooting off a bench at 100 yards to see if the gun is capable.

Richardson had some wind the other night. Match was 5-11 pm. Wind would come from right to left and then it would come up behind you and trickle down the range and wiggle waggle. The best flag to read on the range was not accurate to me. The ones that were had a wide variance of what they meant. And cease fire for small aircraft below 5000 feet were common.

Best one could do is try to set up in the 10 ring as best you could, and protect yourself from 9s and IF you got a condition bang em down as fast as the target would come back up from scoring.

195 and some Xs and 198 and some Xs. Not really pretty. Could be much prettier if I used a rear bag instead of using muscle power.

The folks at the Alaska Rifle Club are some great folks! They did an outstanding job running pits and match. although spray adhesive was new to me in the pits. LOL. And I forgot the double meatball if you accidentally pull a target from under someone. HARD to see the faces. No way to see impacts. Took me some time to get used to hearing the right crack of the bullet. But I enjoy pit puling too.

Even saw a relic with open sights on the line.

Thanks John! Sorry for embarrassing your rifle so badly. But seemed it was a decent score overall.


Just goes to show that 10 at 100 isnt nearly the same as 20 at 600 from position, with pit service and twitchy winds.

Jeff

Sounds like good times. All the more reason to be shooting a sub MOA AR-15. Regardless of how wobbly the human element is. In competition I would take a half MOA rifle over a 1.5 Moa rifle

Jeff,

Glad you had a great time! Yeah sad day the guy using the rifle out shoots the rifle owner! Lol. That wind was a real SOB lol. That’s the problem at the Ft Richardson range sometimes. The summer solstice match the conditions were perfect.
That’s something no one talks about and we discussed it on the drive back to the valley and that is carbon fouling and accuracy degrading.
I’m still pissed about that not letting you guys use a rear tactical bag. Next match I will add my two cents after the safety brief. I might just print the NRA rule book and have them keep it in a binder so people can read it.

Wouldn’t we all.. But when it comes to wind .5 moa rifle not going to help you.. we have F class guys who shoot a .5 moa 600 yd target 3 inch X that can’t even shoot clean. These guys have all the gadgets as well.

Did anybody say read Zedicker's book yet??


Mike

Thats where you are wrong. The 1/2 moa rifle is going to help you score better. Possibly 3 times better than a 1 1/2 moa rifle. The potential to score better is there. To say its not is total bs. The thing i do agree with you about is guys using all the fancy gadgets sometimes couldnt hit their azz with both hands, even if they tried. I was shooting offhand slowfire against guys last month. They were well equipped with fancy shooting jackets and all the other gear, including adjustable diopters and national match sights. It was sad when none of them could touch my score. I think i even made the comment that i wish i had a fancy azzed jacket. It might improve my shooting. Also i didnt realize you are shooting F class now. The mr1 target used for mid range has a 6" X-ring and 36" black. Stevie wonder could hit that with both eyes closed..

Nope not shooting F class.. we use two different targets at 600 yds. F class use MR1F and we use MR1. Sling shooters and AR tactical use MR1 targets. While the geek squad uses MR1F targets. Yep it’s so easy even you can do it. Lol now go find a local 600 yd shoot! Report back. Also 36 inch black includes the 7 ring if a person is zinging 7 all day long they probably need to reconsider what they are doing lol. I had one lone 7 other day those 7’s suck. Was it me, the wind? After Jeff shot I knew it was me lol.

I'll take the.5 moa gun all day long too. It helps a lot IMHO. But only if the shooter is good enough too. So many have the half moa and are 2 moa shooters. But a half moa shooter can't have a 2 moa gun..

The wind at Richardson was worth some. But far from the worst I've ever seen that night. but like I said its value was from 9 ring at 9 to x at 3 while I was shooting. The times I stopped it was worth more.

Don't sweat the bag thing. Its a non issue with me. Could care less. But will know better if I manage a next time.

Hope you are having luck with the carbon!

Again you have no clue what your generosity means to me! I'd say I was as happy as my 71 Year old client today with her 51 pound king salmon.

Jeff

BTW if you dont' dry fire practice prone at home, you'll never get as far as without dry fire. For sure.

Yeah I’m not that serious, I have other chits to do. Fishing, caribou hunt, wife and daughters moose hunt, my Kodiak bear hunt then finish out the season on a rex trail moose muzzloader hunt in November. So yeah laying on the back deck dry firing not going to happen sure in the hell not happening from December through April.. This is just something to do..

Thats one point too, it all depends on how serious you want to be.

RE dry fire in decemeber, same in many was as summer season in TX. we did almost all our dry firing in the house inside and at a target that represents size. IE small dot at 25 feet or so maybe.

To be honest it teaches a lot and if you do it for just a few months consistently you learn a lot IMHO. And though constant practice is good, its more what you learn rather than constant practice IMHO. certainly even just 5 minutes a day doesn't hurt. Just like I continually dry fire my Glock every few days to stay with it so to speak.

And YES I'd sure work much more on the hunting and fishing for sure!!! Its all in whats important to you. See how long it took to get me to shoot... prime example.

I hear that my friend.. Some days are better than others. Its cool that you had Jeff shoot your rifle. Like I've said before, he sets the bar high. Especially in the iron sight part of the black rifle challenge. I don't see a lot of guys shooting like he does, even the fancy shots from Portland and Vancouver with their high dollar equipment. Hell, I'd like for him to shoot my rifles too. He'd probably shoot them better and then say he's rusty.

You are a funny man.

Oh come on rost.

I think it was TWR that said after he changed muzzle devices, he noticed his rifle shot better. I also replied to his post and said I had seen it as well. So, something that may need to be added to the list is muzzle devices. I was at the range yesterday and wanted to try a different muzzle device on my 6.5 creedmoor. After trying the brake last week, I decided I did not want that damn loud thing on the end of my barrel!! So, I ordered a linear comp. I've used these before and they did make a difference with redirecting muzzle blast. The one I tried yesterday was no different, except I was surprised it seemed to reduce recoil a bit as well, compared to just having a thread protector on it. In all, I believe my groups shrank as well after switching to this style of muzzle device. Yeah, I know it sounds funny, but the rifle seemed to be more consistently accurate. Here are some pics from yesterday:





The rifle seemed to be more consistently accurate, if that makes any sense. Anyone else besides me and TWR experience this? Oh, by the way, this was just a cheap linear comp I bought from Ebay. Its called the XN 6.5 linear comp/sound forward muzzle brake.

Great suggestions on not over torquing the muzzle device. I've been playing with those recently. I was also on the net checking out different reaction rods for barrel nut and handguard and muzzle device R&R. I saw where one guy said they can damage your upper receiver, if you over torque the barrel nut or they can actually damage the upper if you have a barrel nut that doesn't want to come off. I guess the index pin and the receiver take most of the load when using the reaction rod. Some may say bs, but it is true. For that reason, I like the looks of this Midwest industries rod better, as it will use the charging handle groove for extra added strength. It also ensures your barrel gets aligned perfectly with the receiver and the bolt. Check this out:

Midwest industries upper receiver rod

Does anyone else have anything to add to the list? I noticed a slight improvement today when shooting my S&W performance center creedmoor after installing an accu wedge. The upper to lower fit was pretty tight, but i did notice a slight movement between the two, so I installed the accu wedge to it, as I do my other AR's. I had to slice it pretty thin, as the fit was already pretty good. Accuracy of this rifle is pretty damn good. I've commented before that it has actually outshot my Tikka CTR 6.5 creedmoor at the 400 yard range, where I've shot a 1.5" 3 shot group at that range. It's a good shooter. Anyone looking for a good accurate 6.5cm in an ar10 type platform, should look into this one...
Here's how it did today:


Its not as quick as my AR15's, but I don't expect it to be. It recoils a little more, but is still a puzzy cat to shoot. Gotta love the 6.5 creedmoor, right?
This rifle had an issue right after I bought it. Before I took it to the range, I noticed the handguard was loose. Upon further inspection, I realized the barrel nut was the culprit. It was only about hand tight. I contacted S&W about this issue and they wanted me to send the rifle back to them for inspection. They said it shouldn't have left the factory that way. I totally agreed, but told them I made a barrel nut wrench myself and I intended to shoot the rifle to see how it did. They didn't like that idea and told me to send my new rifle back to them. I said if it shoots like chidt, I'd sent it back... I've yet to send it back to them, but was a little pizzed they left the barrel nut loose!!!!!


Hey, its cut out by hand, but it works like a champ...

bsa, did you mention what powder and load?

Sorry buddy, I didn't see your question until today. Here's a pic with the load data. Pretty much what I run with my other 6.5 creedmoor rifles, except with a 2.800" OAL for the P mag. Easier to post a pic with load data:


You'll also notice In the pic I list the S&B brass. It is because this rifle flings the brass and I don't like mixing that brass with my precision CTR rifles. I'll be shooting out to 1,000 yards with those rifles next year, if they ever open up matches again..

Ahh. Thanks, bsa.

And yet another reason to try to locate some H4350.

It’s a pain in the ass, if reloading isn’t an option and feeding other quality ammo in a quality barrel isn’t getting you the results you need, you can tamper with barrel harmonics by doing a couple things.
1. Do NOT excessively torque your muzzle device. This makes the barrel stretch when the barrel is heated after a few rounds and will scatter groups.
2.You can tune your muzzle device. Shoot a group and rotate it shoot another group. Record best group and use a high temp loctite and some clocking washers to set it in place.
3 this is the most tedious tip but can and will change harmonics. Originally torque your barrel but to 40 ft pounds, shoot a 5 shot group and let the barre cool. Tighten the barrel but 5 foot pounds and group again and cool. You’re groups will shrink and eventually get larger. Return barrel but torque to the best grouping.
Good luck!

Good advice. Thanks for adding to the thread. Welcome to the fire too..

Well number one improvement for me was adding a good trigger. Mb

Learning a lot reading this thread as I'm pretty new to the AR thing... looking at building an AR one of these days for casual range (probably no competition at the moment) use and coyotes and accuracy is pretty important to me on any rifle I own. Seems like the dogs in our area like to hang up way out there sometimes and a long shot becomes necessary so I'm all about an accurate rifle. The close in dogs sometimes come by like a drive by gangster and catch you by surprise and a quick follow up shot is the one thing the AR platform gives me.

Also, I have this thing about wanting to do an 80% lower just for the project, but won't if it will hamper my search for accuracy.

So, a couple questions to start with- since parts are seemingly impossible to find any more where are you guys finding your parts and pieces? Lowers, BCGs, uppers, barrels, all seem to be in extremely short supply at the moment everywhere so shopping and trying to glean info has been interesting, to say the least.
In all this reading I had a question that I'm curious about- does the chamber you specify with your barrel make a huge difference? What is the best chamber to order- .223, 5.56, or Wylde? I was also thinking a 18 or 20" barrel for this rig, but I'm wondering if that is really necessary for my uses and might add more front end weight than I'm looking for.

Point me in the right direction so I don't spend my kids' inheritance and don't end up with a bunch of useless parts that shoot like a shotgun....

Bob

I Wouldn't Fhuqking Linger RINK

Hint.................

Another question- does a kit like the one linked have to ship to an FFL?

Nope.

Only the lower is Registered and the kit ships with EVERYTHING,except the stripped lower,so it's like ordering a fishing reel.

80% away.

Hint.................(grin)

No, only thing that has to ship to a FFL is the stripped lower that is not included in that kit.