Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters You guys always talking about shooting in the wind and it fu cking up your groups

Shooting in the wind. Ha ha..

I missed it. Who's always talking about the wind messing up their groups?

Once there was a silly old ram
Thought he'd punch a hole in a dam
No one could make that ram scram
He kept buttin' that dam

'Cause he had high hopes

👍

If the wind is consistent it does nothing to the group.

I've shot enough days where you couldn't do that group even with luck.

I've shot on days when the 2x4s holding the targets up snapped off in the wind.

My motto when in competition was the wind is your friend. more than half your competitors have mentally given up.

Now getting a first round pinwheel at longer distances can be challenging. Especially if mirage is involved because there is no firm formula for the amount of correction needed just due to the mirage and how much and fast mirage can vary.

I also don't recall anybody complaining about wind ruining groups.

Do remember several people recently pointing out that "developing" rifle handloads without using wind-flags is pretty useless--unless you're one of those who keeps shooting 3-shot groups until one is tighter than the others. I have friend like that--who's a good example of what Jim Carmichel wrote about years ago, if I recall correctly in his Book of the Rifle--about how many "pet loads" are based on a single 3-shot group.

When I had my 100 indoor range, I could shoot tiny groups. Then go outside on a gusty windy day, the groups looked like s#!t ! When using wind flags, a steady wind can be dealt with without too much trouble. But that gusty, swirling, change directions every 30 seconds, that kind of wind is tough.
Charlie

Once a few years back at Red Castle in Tulsa Oklahoma the wind blew a rack of rifles over. this was at a silhouette match standing trying to hold still in that kind of wind is let's just say very challenging at the least.

if one wants great practice at reading wind get into the 22 rimfire bench rest game.

Because of the shape and location of berms and a tree line my range can have difficult wind conditions. If the overall wind direction in the general area is just right (wrong more like) there will be differing conditions from zero to 100 yards, then 100 to 200 yards, and then 200 to 300 yards.

My lack of concentration on the basics and uniformity of technique...or hold, is what kills my scores...the wind? Not so much, but it makes a dandy excuse.

It’s my shooting that ruins my groups.

The last ARA match I went to there were so many wind flags in 50 yards you couldn’t see the ground. A wind flag every 10 yards plus an up/downer and a speed indicator.

50 yards, Compass Lake AR22, through the irons. I think I missed a reversal...

I laughed to much at this.
Best answer yet.

Excellent example, Chris.

Good shootin' -Al

+1, a hard truth right there. lol

This 8"X30" wind sock is outside my sod hut on the Northern Plains today. Around 30-32 mph, it will fill completely and snap out 90 degrees:



Apparently, he laws of Physics have been repealed because ".......the wind has very little affect on modern bullets at short range."

I must have missed that article in last months 'Physics World' magazine.......

Good shootin' -Al

Al, will say that at times wind flags may actually affect group size.

First 3 so so, #4 goes left looking real bad. #5 keyholes. What the hey?




Then comes light bulb moment as scratching your head while packing up, you hit the 50 yard flag prop twice in a good wind.



😁😁😁

I shoot in the windiest place in North America. Literally. I shoot where your hat needs to be held on while setting up targets. Those days are great. Wind is consistent and everyone else stays home.

At least it was on the sighter. -Al

Well... You want the last one in the scope but 😁😅🤣

I always take a couple of extra pins down with me, put them under the bottom of the target and tell people not to hang a target any lower than the pins.

Shooting NRA highpower at the local 600 yard range taught me a lot about wind. We weren't shooting for groups per se, but scores. Twenty-shot strings of fire from prone. The "High Master" boys & girls could put darned near every shot into the 10 ring, and many times the matches were decided by X-count. I made High Master, but was never a threat to the top shooters in any match.

During those 20-shot strings of fire, the wind conditions could change a lot at that rifle range. I was good at detecting the wind pickup, but not so great at noticing the let-off, until I'd shank one out into the 8 ring!

Our wind flag situation was pretty dismal, as we were shooting across a big gorge. For a couple of hundred critical yards, from 300 - 500, there simply was no place to put a flag.

Remember well a "dust devil" descending upon the firing line in one match... And it stayed there for quite a while. I don't remember if anyone tried to shoot through that whirlwind.

Distance is easy, it's just math. Wind? It can be so twitchy and tough to deal with.

A good rule of thumb to prevent this is: Look from the top of the bench to the bottom of the target frame and make sure none of the flags are above this height. As a matter of fact, that's a rule that's enforced at all I.B.S. or N.B.R.S.A. registered tournaments. If a competitors flag is too high, the range officer will go out and lay it down.

Of course, none of this applies to the advanced shooter that's using flags to help his load development. Just make sure that they are placed 'into' the prevailing wind direction. If the prevailing wind direction is from the 9 o'clock for example, don't set them on your right side 3 o'clock...whatever you see then has already gone past you. Set them 'into' the condition so you can see what's coming.

This is another reason to learn to shoot with both eyes open...your off-eye can watch the flags. It's also why real Benchrest rifle have their scopes mounted quite a bit higher than hunting rifles. With a high scope mounting, you can sit in a more upright position and watch the flags better. Here's a few examples:

This is at Painted Post, New York for the IBS Score Nationals. At each yardage, the target berms are terraced higher. By the time you get to 300 yds., the gun has a lot of elevation on it. The 1/2" risers under the tall rings let me sit straighter and see the flags.



This is at Van Dyne, Wi. for the NBRSA Wi. State Hunter Championships. The gun is my Hunter (HBR) rifle...these guns are 10 lbs. max., a narrow 2.25" fore end, a 6X scope and a case that holds a minimum of 45.0 grs. of water (30-30 capacity). Again, the higher rings keep your head up. Believe me, you don't want to be wadded up like the Hunchback Of Notre Dame on these HBR guns when they come back at 'ya. I ended up winning the 100, was second at 200 and was second in the Grand Aggregate that weekend. The case capacity rules have since been dropped and most now use the 30BR.




IBS Score National at Holton, Michigan. The scope isn't as high as I would have liked but the range is really flat so I made it work. Ended up winning the 100 with my RFD actioned 30BR Varmint class gun (10.5 lbs).



This is looking over my back at the Prairie Dog Target Club in Porcupine, S.D. for the NBRSA Hunter Nationals. It's a good shot illustrating flag placement for the prevailing condition.



My 10.5 lb. 6PPC in a redwood and carbon fiber stock. Due to the lower recoil compared to the .30's I normally shoot, the scope is mounted high enough so you can really just shoot heads-up watching the flags once the dot is placed where you want it on the target. A bit of a leap of faith but it can work when the winds are real switchy and you have to 'snap shoot' a condition.



My huntin' stuff gets mounted lower, depending on the stock....different tools for different jobs.





For what it's worth...............

Good shootin' -Al

Al, I've never shot BR competition, but watching a long range BR match, I was amazed at how fast those guys would shoot when they detected their favorable conditions.

Outstanding!

Guy

Great post, as usual, Al. Thanks!

Al- thanks for the scope height info. I've been wondering about it after seeing your high-mounted setups.

Great post Jeff. Thanks.. I have also seen guys crumble in the wind.

I agree Charlie. Thanks for your insight. Constant wind only changes POI, but those damn wind's that change/switch on you are a pain. Head winds and tail winds are something that a lot of guys don't think about. I've seen some pretty huge POI changes when shooting in canyons. That is why we practice, in different conditions. It keeps us on our toes.

I'm assuming tri-cities?

Damn that would suck man.

No, East Wenatchee at the NCW Gun Club "Home of the Wind Buckers" - aptly named. That gorge does interesting things with the wind.

Regards, Guy

I like that buddy. I lose concentration as well, as of late it seems. I think familiarity is to blame for that. I always want to pull the trigger fast for some reason. I'll settle down when I'm shooting irons from the weak side though. The target that I did not show was this one. Well, I kind of showed it in the OP, when it was folded over.

After shooting that last shot, I kind of chuckled and the guy at the next bench said, "you shot through the paper when it was folded over". I said, yeah, maybe it's too windy??? That kind of made my day, as the new rifle is shooting pretty good. Now, I need to start working on some loads for it...

The end result of my new rifle, when zeroed for the conditions and after I fit the steel Warne bases and Burris Zee rings. I'm liking this new rifle, but the wind was a PITA when I shot this group:



It's just a hunting rifle guys. I'm not talking some fancy benchrest gun. Just a good 30-06 hunting rifle that has had a little work done to it. Rich Jamison wrote an article on the same rifle, but chambered in 270 win back in 1982:

Camp Bullis was a wind range. I never could shoot a clean there at 600. And I've gone 20 MOA one side to the other to shoot consecutive X at 1000 a few times basically. Luck yes. But its big changes.

Any shooter that knows, knows head and tail winds have an effect. They have never had huge effects for us though. But some for sure.

And that said about the 100-200-300 lines being different wind... how about left to right with trees on the side. I've talked with enough to know... certain winds at Perry you will have no wind, left wind, right wind and some elevation between that... its easy enough to read up there though.

The reason folks think wind isn't a big thing sometimes is its easy to shoot MOA or less at 100 in some wind. But if those folks ever got to shoot in a tunnel and realize they could be shooting 0/2s... then the other groups are wind related but since you are shooting so close like 100 yards the error has not multiplied much yet.

I was lucky once... actually a couple of times, to have the only cleans at 600 on a range past Waco. It was a windy range at times and fairly tricky... but I managed to figure out what the wind was doing. And shot well.

For me, I always imagine water flowing where the wind does. You can see what water does easily. And unless you pop smoke in wind you never really see what it does. Water helps me understand it. Of course part of that is growing up around water and even today using my captains license 4 plus months of the year... I see lots of water.

BTW wind flag height.. I'll give a field example. Long sendero. Trying to head shoot a deer about 350. Missed twice. The wind was really a stiff front. Like 18-22/24 appx. There HAD to be wind involved in the shot. But the brush was just high enough and my trajectory from the 338 win mag, I figured had to top out and get bumped a bit. I was wrong. Way wrong. finally held with zero wind and connected on the 3rd shot.

Sometimes we over think. Sometimes we dont' think at all. Either and any in between can burn us.

Good post rost. When I'm shooting long range silhouette, I watch the mirage a lot in my scope (NF Atacr). It is a much better scope than what is on my old Mauser shown in the op. Whole different ball game there. I don't see much deviation when shooting at 100 yards. Some seem to think they can't shoot in the wind at that measly distance. You can, it's not hard to do. I wouldn't be developing loads in 15-20 mph winds, but 10 mph, no big deal. Contrary to some belief here. I like your input, as I've seen some major deviation at 1,000 yards. Even 650 to 800 yards, when shooting in a canyon with a head wind. Results can be catastrophic..

I'm glad you said that. You have a ton of experience. I was shooting a new load the other day. Expecting to have to adjust POA to hit center of the target. Nope... Wrong:


I hit damn near where I was aiming!!! Wind was about 10mph and constant. I was thinking the low bc Nosler partition would need some steering, but nope it actually cut through those conditions better than I thought it would.. That's only 400 yards, not really that far. At 1,000, it might have been a different story..

Another thing.. my brain is slow this morning lol.

Wind let ups were mentioned. That also was my thing that I could not realize in a string.

So with some research and a few words from David too I got to timing the wind. Yup it does run in cycles.

When the letups are bad enough to kill a score for match.. granted you can't always use this in hunting but sometimes you can and we have... it helps you.

Run a second stop watch... start shooting as the wind starts to build after a letup. Stop shooting a bit before its about to die off some... really actually worked very well. And often, assuming pit service was fast enough, you could get 22 shots out before it let up. OTOH if you have to call for a mark every time you shoot a 10/X....

Ah thanks Guy. Have you ever shot Douglas ridge?

That Model 340 is a good looking rifle, and obviously a shooter.

Guy

Yes, wind does run in "cycles". Most guys don't think about that. I'll fill you in. In my trade, I deal with the wind always. It's usually down on the river of some sort, welding on a barge or tug boat. When welding, you are always watching the wind. Especially when running dual shield, as the gas shielding is blown away by the wind and causes pinholes, if it's bad enough. There are always lulls that you watch for. When shooting, it's the same way. There are also days when it seems constant, but it backs off and on. You just have to be in tune and realize what it is doing. Good point rost..

Thanks Guy. It's been fun working on it. It is pretty consistent after some glass bedding and fine tuning. Rifle was like new when I got it.

It isn't just different wind at the 100-200-300 lines, it can be different wind over each 100 yard increment at the 300 line.

An interesting and informative thread, thanks to some guys who really know the topic.

This is why I place little value on most reports of rifle accuracy "testing", even those by professional gun writers. I also spent about 10 years as range officer on a public range, watched countless shooters with expensive equipment burning quantities of ammo "testing" , and getting less than optimal results. I often found that even polite, low key suggestions were not always welcome, so I mostly gave up and let them do their thing, so long as it was safe.

It's all good, I guess.

Thanks for the very informative post, Al!

I mostly shot club matches for benchrest. Assisted Dick Wright running his matches at Harrison, I did the stats and acted as range officer, called range commands for one relay. We ran ten matches a season opposite of Holton but I never made it over to Holton for their matches. My boss expected me to work two weekends a month. While Harrison had nice benches there was a rise in the ground between the firing line and the targets. Flag stands had to be really short so flags had to be staggered horizontally as you've described.

This was the 100 yard range at Isabella County, Dick and I ran matches there for Steve Robbins. As you can see tall stands worked on this range so I'd stagger my flage by height. Ya, the last flag might be a couple of inches too high... 🤭

Randy Robinett and I loaded with Dick at Holton for the IBS Score Nationals. I'd read his articles in P.S. for years and he was exactly how I had imagined he would be. An interesting guy, for sure. Glorya was there too but I could tell she was pretty sick.

Your pic with the tall grass on the side reminded me of when I shot the IBS Nationals in Dublin, Georgia. There were signs along the range saying 'Stay Within Range Boundary' Well, someone had wandered off into the tall grass to relieve himself after setting flags. The range officer yelled loudly over the speakers: "Hey....you out there in the tall grass! Get the Hell outta there....there's big ass rattle snakes in that grass!!!"

Just the week before, they had killed a 6 foot timber rattler on the range.

Too funny!!!

Good shootin' -Al

😁

Only problem with Dick was that he was a liberal. That lead to some very spirited conversation in the range house... 🤣
Glorya was a sweetheart, keeping Dick on a leash was a full-time job for her.

It was pretty interesting when Dick and my pal Dan Hackett got talking....two liberals that loved the shooting sports. In both cases, they were guys that loved to argue (in the legal sense of the word). Very passionate people, for sure.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.... -Al

Shooting while your breaking wind always messes up the group


Trystan

I call BS on this wind BSA…… and I believe this is a mirage issue intended to offer more chances to post pic’s of that H&R you stumbled onto. And then it was confirmed when the magazine pics showed up! My friend here has a 7x57 that has traveled all over and hunted hard. Always said if I saw one in 7mm I would have to grab it. Now your making me think I should have taken the 06 I passed on a few years back……. Dust in the Wind!

Yes, the good ones can really rip 'em down there. Of course, the train wrecks can be pretty spectacular, too.

The thing about shooting like this is: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. In steady conditions with a light gun like a 6PPC, about the best I can do with 5 very well aimed shots is about 18-20 seconds...firing, ejecting, loading and getting the dot where I want it and still be good on the gun handling. The 30BRs, even in the 13.5 lb. HV guns just move around too much to be able to shoot this quickly. Your 'table manners' have to be perfect every time with these 30s...the PPC guns are much more forgiving in that respect.

When you shoot fast, you better be able to get on the brakes just as fast.

Good shootin' -Al

Truth. On a windy day on the silhouette line it's a question of which is making it worse. The wind blowing me around or blowing the bullets around. With wind flags at least you can take some actions with the bullets.

Good stuff Al, thanks!

Guy

Something that's important to grasp is how much a truly accurate rifle will teach you about the wind. Many shooters think that the wind isn't a factor simply are being faked out due to the fact that wind induced bullet displacement is just lost in the noise of the overall large group sizes.

I mention this because early on, I was one of those guys.

As I worked to improve the accuracy of my predator and 'dog guns, trends began to emerge. Somewhere around the 1/2" 5 shot group size, I started to question my 'facts' concerning wind. And around the 3/8" group sizes, there was no doubt that I had stuff wrong. The first time I sat down behind a pals real deal Benchrest rig and got some wind coaching, it was like a hammer hit me on the side of the head.

Good shootin' -Al

Al,

I went through a similar transformation around 1990, while attending the annual "Groundhog Shooters and Prevaricators Conference" that Melvin Forbes of Ultra Light Arms used to throw in West Virginia, on the 800-acre "farm" he and some friends had purchased years before to have a place to hunt, shoot and generally prevaricate.

Of course, there was a 100-yard range just far enough away from the front porch of the old farmhouse where much of the prevaricating took place, and that year the late Mickey Coleman attended. He brought more than one of the very accurate benchrest rifles he was known to build, and provided my first real lesson on the use of wind flags. Of course, that eventually led down several different rabbit-holes, including finding out just how well a typical heavy-barreled factory .223 "varmint" rifle could shoot, given some accurizing and good handloads....

John

My group was shot semi auto with an AR22 and I used that exact technique with that exact downside outcome. Our 100 yard range is notorious for wind and has humbled more than one name smallbore prone competitor. Herb Hollister vowed never to shoot there again. KI thought I might be able to grab a condition and get my group on paper during that condition. Clearly I went a little too fast (or not fast enough) and didn't catch the flip.